New AMCA Judging Criteria Introduced at Eustis

[Chris Haynes]

Thanks D.A.B. The Haynes site does have a VERY good section with good reference photos. This may not be the 'official' end-all authority, but it is a great source. Thanks again and thanks to Chris Haynes.

I have a lot more numbers than those shown on my website if ya need'em.

[Sargehere]

Did anyone see the guy selling number stamps on the vending field! He even had them labeled for what make bike they are to be used for....HD, BMW, ect. I don't know anything about them but had to stop and look. Were they correct for the makes? Can anyone comment on accuracy? Thanks.

Louie, I stopped and looked at that little card-table display, too; just out of curiosity. I didn't memorize anything, but I know the number set he'd labeled, "Harley, from 30-(something) to 40-(something)," was pretty generic, and nothing that would have fooled me on the judging field the next morning. The open-topped four, as I remember, was the same shape as the one that attracted our notice on the post-war EL Senior Award-winner bike that was disqualified on Sunday.
I didn't say a thing to that vendor, just took it all in, and when I'd decided that what I was looking at wasn't anything that the AMCA judges (with probably with only a little coaching) needed to worry about, I walked on.
Considering what transpired after that (which was before I attended the 3 o'clock Apprentice Judge's meeting) I wish I'd pulled out my camera and flipped it to "close up," and snapped a few pics.
I've looked pretty closely at the set pictured below. I copied this photo when the set was offered on Ebay. It has some good likenesses; some bad, and some of the same glaring inaccuracies that stick out like sore thumbs, but would, no doubt, fool some who think they know their numbers:


(anyone wanting a good, close up examination, should know that you can do that on this page by holding down your "CTRL" key while rolling your mouse wheel "away")

Some of the numbers are pretty good, but the letters in the set don't seem to me to display any of the "peculiarities" unique to Harley's VIN stamps, of the nineteen thirties and forties. Which may be why the Ebay seller didn't include any letters on his stamped "sample board."
I predict still that it'll be a cold day in Hades when I'm fooled by a bogus H-D restamp on the judging field in the year Classes that I know.

[D.A.Bagin]

Droptop, Pretty much between Gerry and Chris you HAVE the be all end all. D.A.B. #3166

[D.A.Bagin]

I do remember the booth selling the stamps. Were they not set up next to the Southern Meet booth??

[bikerdds]

New judging standards?

There was one thing not mentioned about some of the judging changes at Eustis. While not an actual change to the judging, there is a change supposedly coming that will affect everyone wanting a bike judged in the future if the board insists on following through. There was a full page legal appearing disclaimer that started to circulate that would have to se signed before entering a bike. Having read this, I was appalled. We do not need a full page of legalese to enter a bike. Yes, we want to protect the AMCA and it's judging, but this was absolutely over the top. If the board really wants to implement this, I'm sure many will never sign it and the judging will become something we don't want it to be. It implies you may not use AMCA judging as an instrument in the value of your motorcycle. If a disclaimer is needed, it could surely be simplified to where it does not appear threatening. This is what happens when board meetings are closed to the members. We are trying to protect against fakery. But if someone wants to have an intentional fake entry, he will still swear it is original [restored] and enter it and try to get by no matter what.
Most of us feel that judging increases bike value. it does. but this disclaimer is total b.s. Restraint of trade maybe?
Where is the transparency in the AMCA?

[*JU]

Bikerdds,
I'd guess they are covering themselves from being held liable in the case of a motorcycle having the "good" parts switched after judging and being resold to a buyer relying on the judging data for authentication. This happens often in the automotive world. The judging bodies will not allow their awards to be touted by name in Ebay ads etc.

[fillibuster]

tattoo's

I've only been judged once, back in 92 when I rode longest distance to a meet, and the bike had to be judged to be eligible for that award. I got a "does not meet criteria", and the award. 's'all good!

But today I'm working on a few old scouts whose #'s are, just as well say, absent. They'll need tattoo's. Do I HAVE to be sneaky about it? Why can't the practice be "certified" somehow? .. maybe in a way that doesn't cost all of 6 points. What is the responsible thing to do? for the next caretaker?
Who ya gonna call?

[LouieMCman]

Release form

I had a bike in the Winners Circle at Eustis and during the show someone walked up to me and handed me the attached release release form and walked away. I found it strange for someone to do this, was it someone "official" or someone who just wanted to get the form out in the public? It was not used in Eustis but it exists and my guess would be it's on the way for other shows. I had to shrink it down a bit I hope you can read it......

[Paps]

I see no real harm with a disclaimer which would protect the organization from legal issues surrounding the acurracy of judging. I do see a very large issue surrounding that disclaimer though. I believe the way this is written, people will will be driven away from having the organization judging and will resort to another party or qualified separate entity for certified judging. Even the separate judging system will have a disclaimer as a protection but it will not prevent people who wish to point out their bike scored whatever by that entity. As I see it....the organization should be proud their name is regarded so highly in the accuracy segment of judging. Paps

[pete reeves]

I was at the judging at Eustis and as far as I am aware nobody was asked to fill out any disclaimer forms. Our assistant Chief Judge was showing people copies of this form on the Saturday before judging. It’s possible that this is a draught of a disclaimer that is still being worked on?
In my opinion the club needs to protect itself from possible legal action and a suitably worded disclaimer would be appropriate

At first glance this document looks to be long winded but having read it twice I cannot see anything outrageous in it. Looks like whoever wrote it is trying to cover all possible angles.
I would not have any problem with signing this or a similar document next time I have a bike judged.

Pete Reeves 860

[Paps]

Pete...it is the very last sentence in the first paragraph I am concerned about. this sentence pretty much overides the rest of the agreement.

[pete reeves]

Paps.
I think it’s just legal gobblede**** to absolve the AMCA of any responsibility should there be a dispute where somebody paid extra for a bike because it was judged by the AMCA.
In reality the fact that a bike has an AMCA award will still help it sell.
I presume that somebody that knows what there are doing has drafted this and would hope that its wording offers the club full protection.
Pete Reeves 860

[Paps]

I agree Pete but IMO that sentence needs removed. If I am reading it as a lawyer may read it, it seems to place an AMCA member in a liable position for relating how his or her bike scored via organization judging, as a means to promote the integrity of the machine during the sale of said machine, and at the same time, this very same sentence, if violated, could mean membership expulsion from the club for doing such. If I entered a bull at the county fair and the bull won the best ribbon, I have the right to state this as such.

[Lonnie]

My observation of the document Louie was kind enough to post is that it is the work of a lawyer trying to justify his retainer. In many cases in today's society the lawyers are leeches bleeding others of their hard-earned money, IMHO. The document is a case in point.

I find it extremely discouraging that those of us who are spending sometimes ridiculous amounts of money restoring these Harleys and Indians will be subjected to the Number Police and endless scrutiny of the most minute detail while the Japanese bikes are passed over solely because the number of truly knowledgeable people for those makes are few and far between. I have personally witnessed, on more than one occasion, an entire horde of judges spend over a half hour going over individual American machines while Japanese bikes down the line are getting a 10-minute review! It can be claimed that the knowledge base will improve and that the records are available and will be utilized in the training of the judges, but I do not for one minute take that to heart.

Further, to spring new rules on attendees at the meet, with no preliminary information whatsoever, is arrogance of the highest degree!

For anyone to say that it is for the well-being of the Club and the hobby is merely glossing over the most basic of facts, which is that in any and all circumstances "buyer beware". If a person is crazy enough to buy one of our over-priced toys without having first established his own personal knowledge base of the most basic item, the authentic appearance of the VIN, that is that person's own stupidity.

Thank you.

[rousseau]

i wonder if someone felt there was liability issues with a 98 point bike brining big money on ebay then the new owner finding out half was repop and then going after the club that gave high marks?

Here is a perfect example. Ebay item#130371253781 Seller claims this bike scored 97 by AMCA. This is what I see incorrect just from the photos. Color of gas tank, Badges on gas tank, decal on gas tank. Placment of decal on oil tank. Wrong mufflers. wrong headlight, Should not have center stand.(side stand only) Missing rim locks on rear wheel. Wrong fork boots. wrong plug wires. missing amber front reflectors. I feel sure there is much more .
I see no way this bike scored a 97. But seller claims he has judges forms. The current bid of 6K is at least 2K over "true value" .