New AMCA Judging Criteria Introduced at Eustis

[bjind]

Only my opinion

I agree with you..........let's live up to our mission statement and try and get encourage each other to restore and ride these old motorcycles.

It seems to me that it is becoming more "all about the money" than preservation of the old iron for future generations.

First off, I don't post to any forum, but this topic is toxic. I feel it will drive a wedge between members of this club.

I have been a member a long time, not really active though. The meets I attend for the old parts; and to see the original bikes. I don't go to the show field, unless it is to get a picture of an original bike. I had old motorcycles long before I joined AMCA; and also was into antique automobiles a long time ago.

As I was coming up through the ranks of a antique automobile organization, that organization really pushed the judging. And as I was president of a local chapter, I saw first hand the tension that can develop from one member to another member or to the organization. The trophy collectors just got out of hand.

As a previous poster here said "this is between the bikers and the investors", and I can't agree more. We can't do anything about the high $$$$ prices for the parts and bikes; other than just walk away from them. I honestly believe the judging contributed to the high prices. But, Hey that is human nature. You can take it or leave it, I leave it.

The judging is what brings some members into the club, some not all. The longer this debate grows, the deeper the divide, we will see between long time friends.

[dlterpstra]

Great Point

I agree with you..........let's live up to our mission statement and try and get encourage each other to restore and ride these old motorcycles.

It seems to me that it is becoming more "all about the money" than preservation of the old iron for future generations.

I know this is a very controversial topic, so don't chop my head off.

I would have to agree with Carl a little on this one.

Here are my thoughts:

I for one would like to see the effort that is put into judging be used for a more productive outcome for the club and motorcycle history. Imagine if years ago, the judging event/time slot was used to document these machines. There are many knowledgeable older people in the club that will not be there forever. We should capture this knowledge instead of letting it pass us by. "A copy of a copy is never as good as an original!" I am very sure that the same thing happens with judging and things don't get passed down the same. A pictoral of a specific bike and their intricasies could be developed for each model and a revision level of each of those kept for all members to see and revised as appropriate. Then if someone wanted to persue restoring a bike they would be able to use this guide. If you wanted judging, the judges could use this guide. The guide would also be there to preserve history about the bikes. I'm not saying make a guide for each individual vin machine, but by year and model would be appropriate as they are made. I know there are experts for various different models out there - call so and so about that type of thing. If these were divided up between everyone they could be done relatively easy. Like a very detailed book report so to speak.

I for one see this judging thing blowing up with all the new bikes that will be available to be judged.

Perhaps the bike shouldn't be judged until the pictoral standard is developed. The bike can be brought to the meets for development of the standards if one has not been developed.

I'm not sure if the club has a mission statement, but this is what I found on the very website that I am typing this on.

************************************************** ********
"Who We Are
We could bore you with facts and figures, membership size, age of the club, etc., but what it all boils down to is this... having fun with Old Iron! Networking in this club means rubbing elbows and turning a few wrenches with fellow club members who share your passion for old bikes.

Enjoyment of this hobby can take many forms, depending on your level of interest. If detailed restoration is your main concern, you will find club members with similar interests eager to lend a hand. Assistance may come in the form of supplying that elusive part you've been searching for, or answering technical questions such as the correct color for your machine.

Getting back to rubbing elbows, what better place than at one of the nine national meets spread throughout the country. Here’s your opportunity to peruse the swap area, get a little silly participating in the field games, or enter a bike for judging and perhaps earn your just reward for all that sweat you spent on its restoration.

Perhaps feeling the wind in your hair is your idea of a perfect way to spend a lazy summer afternoon. There's a local chapter of the Antique Club near you, filled with people who have wind blown hair and the occasional oil stain on their boots.

If a longer ride would better suit you, sign up for one of the four annual national road tours. Here you and the family can enjoy some beautiful scenery and put a few miles on your bike over a four-day period. All club activities are designed so the entire family can participate.

Have we sparked your interest? We hope so. "
************************************************** ********

[vph-d]

I don't believe there was any mention of new rules at Freemont. We were, however, advised to deduct 6 pts for incorrect paint. Judging occurred on Sat. morning the 6th. I observed a 48 Pan be DQd for having the wrong frame.
VPH-D

[Sargehere]

Sludge
this is NOT a new rule, it has been in effect since this judging system started in 1992

bmh
yes they did have judging at Fremont, but they did it under the old rules

We used to have the owners start their bike, right in front of the judges, if it had not already been seen to run at the meetsite that weekend, as long as I can remember: 1972. Basically, it's always been the rule, and occasionally it's been circumvented, even under the old "Best Restored, Second Best Restored" system.

[Lonnie]

Re the requirement to start, I remember when Kevin had a rather heated discussion with a friend of mine in Eustis a few years back who did not want to start his Chief until he had the inside of his pipes ceramic coating - if they were actually used the vendor would not warranty the work. Kevin went round after round with my friend but the end result was it didn't get started and it did not get judged!

Having been thru the judging process (two WC bikes as a result) with several others well capable of being high scoring bikes, thanks to Larry Gee, I fully appreciate the tremendous amount of work (& $) involved. If the rules are to change, that's fine, change 'em. But have enough respect for the members to do it as a process, implement a new judging manual and then allow enough time for the members to incorporate the changes.

Bad numbers are one thing and that has been addressed. However, the correct-for-year paint is another, since there had been leeway in the past (paint from previous, not later, years). Since the whole AMCA documentation as a selling point seems to be the big deal, the bikes that fell into that crack should have that so noted on the form in big letters, not kicked down for 6 points! Now you could have two identical bikes, one a WC and the other never to get past a Junior Second!

And what about the poor folks who perhaps got their Junior First and first Senior last year but now find they are denied the second Senior to get to the WC?

Personally, I think that the judging process is a great learning tool for those so inclined. It certainly was (is) for me. I'll not go through it again, though. Besides, my '41 EL with the repaired cases (the damage was significant and right below the numbers) would get trashed for 6 points anyway.

As the only member of my chapter who has been through the judging process, I get heat from the guys for my "pretty bikes". We have chapter rides every month (April through November) and this year I have told the guys that for my ride in September we are riding dirt roads, me on my WC '42!

As Carl noted, you will never have more fun than on a road run! So, build them the best you can and ride 'em 'til the wheels fall off!

[kval]

i like the new rule that a bike must start before it can be judged.

Sludge
this is NOT a new rule, it has been in effect since this judging system started in 1992

bmh
yes they did have judging at Fremont, but they did it under the old rules

[bmh]

Something else I've been wondering. Did they have field judging at Fremont? I don't know as I have never been to that meet. If so were the new rules also in place there?

[bmh]

Engine cases, and #s have always been an issue, it's just that we have defined the penalty more clearly, and a more critical eye will be used in this area. We have been DQing bikes for bad #s all along, now it's in the rules, and more strictly adhered to.

How were we DQing bikes for bad numbers previously? there is absolutely no mention of VIN's in the handbook. Don't recall that as a category on the score sheet either. Again how can you play a game without knowing the rules? And after all that's all this is, it's just a game.

One must keep in mind that the soul goal for judging is to preserve an example of the machine for future reference. It is our duty to strictly execute this process so none of our machines become extinct, and loose their representation of their era.

Not as long as we encourage the changing of original machines from the configurations they were found in.

From the current handbook.

"The finish on parts added to an
unrestored bike should show the same degree of
wear as the rest of the motorcycle."

making additions or changes is not preservation. Quite to the contrary it is the destruction of the machines history. Original machines should be held as the benchmark for judging a restored machine. Unfortunately the system as it is often puts it the other way around, holding the original to the standards set forth for restoration. Usually these standards come from someone else's text that the original machines never got the chance to read. Look at the questions raised here about what type of part is this? or what did the one with the little marking originally come installed on? This forum is full of that type of stuff and usually the answer can not be found in a text. Even the folks most would consider experts ask those type of questions here. How many of these little mysteries will remain unsolved because someone took the rusty part off and replaced it with a nicer looking but slightly different one just to gain that 1/4 point and enter the winners circle? Or add some$$$$ to the sale price?

Well we can talk about what if's all day, I guess until we have a new judging handbook listing the new rules and criteria the judging will be whatever the judges say it will be. We should make them sign a disclaimer, for right now it is enter at your own risk.

[rwm]

can anyone tell me why red fred is not the club president? fred and sarge thanks for your time .on this forum

[redfred84]

I understand your concerns Brian. The Judging Committee worked frantically from Oct. up until the BOD meeting in Eustice to try and get a plan ironed out. Florida is the 1st meet of the year, and the hopes were for this venue to start off any new procedures.
The main change will be for non-factory competition bikes, and since there were none pre-registered, it seemed a clear path to progress on. Engine cases, and #s have always been an issue, it's just that we have defined the penalty more clearly, and a more critical eye will be used in this area. We have been DQing bikes for bad #s all along, now it's in the rules, and more strictly adhered to. Judging is an on-going evolution of learning & improvements, a thankless activity where it is impossible to please everyone.
One must keep in mind that the soul goal for judging is to preserve an example of the machine for future reference. It is our duty to strictly execute this process so none of our machines become extinct, and loose their representation of their era.
Look for a formal "press release" soon on this ever evolving facet of our Club. Most of the people envolved are still in Florida, enjoying Bike Week, and a cold, wet, vacation there. It may be a bumpy road along the path to the perfect preservation of our machines, but it's all for a good cause.
Thanks for everyone's input, RF.

[sludge]

well said Carl, Flat and the rest who dig riding more than anything else. i do realize that folks want and deserve recognition for all the hard work of getting a bike to the point of having it judged. i like the new rule that a bike must start before it can be judged. i would also like to see a rule that a bike must be ridden by the owner (at least once around a track) and that the owner should be able to point to the carburetor (doesn't have to spell it though) when asked to do so. those rules would eliminate the person that paid somebody else a large sum of money to restore a bike so that they then could trailer it year after year to the meet for judging.

[bmh]

Lonnie raises some very interesting thoughts. I've been wondering about some of this myself.

"Further, to spring new rules on attendees at the meet, with no preliminary information whatsoever, is arrogance of the highest degree!"

I've also been wondering how one can enter into a contest or competition without knowing the rules firsthand? And without a known set of rules that means they can be in flux and made up on the spot as needed to suit whatever ends. Should not a new set of rules been developed, a new handbook been published and made available for inspection prior to the event? I agree, bad form gentlemen!

"The bigger problem, as I see it, is that establishing the authenticity of the VIN of any motorcycle being judged is up to the knowledge of the judges on hand at that event on that day."

As I said before, who is going to conduct the college courses needed to have judges that are educated enough to make these decisions? Who will gather and keep all this information? Most importantly, Who will verify it's correctness?? And there has already been discussion of things like forging hallmarks on frames. If you have replaced your axle clips, sidecar loops and toolbox mount will you be DQ'd for a repro frame? If you discount the tubing, you have replaced about a third of the components on the frame. These are all very common repairs. On the same manner as repro heads and cylinders on the engine. How will all of this effect our friends who run shops specializing in restoration?

"Further, if a motorcycle appears at a judging and it is determined that the VIN is incorrect, i.e. had been changed, what then?"

Now that's a big one. So what exactly is our responsibility? The failure to report a suspected or known crime is in itself a crime. At the upper end could be considered conspiracy. While the charge would most likely not hold, just being charged and arrested of something like that will definitely screw up more than your week. This is not to say that I feel that bikes with funny looking VIN's should be allowed for judging, because I don't. But we must be very careful how we accomplish that. Perhaps submitting photo's of the machine including VIN with the entrance application for review by committee would be the way to go. Suspicious VIN's could be screened out at that time, before a bike was even brought to an event. This would have also given the opportunity for the owner of the FXE to present his case and documentation. Upon satisfactorily proving the legitimacy of his replacement engine, he should have been allowed to compete. Of course deductions should have been made for the different style of VIN lettering and any other differences between the cases used and those that were original.

As I said, I feel this effort was a step in the correct direction. But I also feel it was very poorly executed. The regime change ,the new rules all at once without any input or open discussion or warning.......The leadership of this organization seems to have this ready, fire, aim thing down to a science. Couple that with the devil may care attitude that also seems to be there and I think we can expect much more of the same in the future.

[redfred84]

Driven Masterpieces

JU,
My sentiments exactly. Please see my story on the PB Concours week in the latest Antique Motorcycle magazine. Hopefully it dismisses everyone's missguided prejudice on these magnificent vehicles, and the gear heads who own, drive, show, and enjoy them. After all, the Chief Judge of Pebble is also a Bobber riding AMCA member!
Bravo, RF.

[*JU]

Even the Pebble Beach cars are driven to compete!

http://autoshow.autos.msn.com/autoshow/PebbleBeach2008/Article.aspx?cp-documentid=9439410

[redfred84]

full spectrum of enjoying the machines

Wow, everyone sure has some great input on this. I started off as a skinny, broke, snot- nosed kid with my first bike (which I had to hide from my parents). I still have it, my '47 Chief. I finally got it running, and tie wired & taped it together for a few years, learning the entire time (I'm still learning). I made my own up-swept fist tails for it, and thought I was cool.
Eventually, I started to do some of the mechanicals in a more professional manner, which resulted in farther explorations. The bike was transforming from a local bar hopper, to a road racer. I hit my first AMCA Road Run quite by accident, when I attended the early DJ Run in Durango Colorado. I thought it was going to be a swap meet! I was pretty dissapointed in the lack of parts, but discovered riding with other old stuff was a blast (all my local buddys rode shovel heads, which were new then). So I got hooked at an early age on the Road Runs. I guess I started off with period modifieds.
I then happened across and old Sport Scout project, and got it running with Chief flywheels, and knobby tires. It was my dirt bike. Had a blast, but it was a rough cobbled up collection of parts. Around this time, interest started stirring on the vintage flat track scene, with Dick Bugsy Mann holding a Vintage event here in Calif. I got the fever, and converted my pile into an amature racer. all the while trying to promote races via the AMA, and my local SFMC. Almost pulled it off. Then the 1/2 mile at Davenport became the mecca for this sort of stuff. I was there for the very first event, and won my heat, despite a broken throttle cable. My buddy/nieghbor Ricky (now on the AMCA Board) tie wired the throttle to my arm, and away I went! The worst let down in the world is taking your racer all the way to Davenport from CA, only to have the event rained out. That happened twice to us.
Not long after that I became fat, bald, and stiff; plus there was no where to get any practice laps here in San Francisco. So I tried my hand a restoration attempt. What a challenge! It was very interesting doing all the research, homework ,and hunting for those elite, special parts. Then I hung out for a judging at one of the meets and learned a ton of stuff just by following the likes of Toney Watson, and Robin Markey around (I wish these guys would write a book).
Soon Kevin Valentine grabbed me, and put me to work. I have never thought of the judging as uppity. It's really an appreciation of an all out dedication for the preservation of the machine.
Thus, I have contracted the full on desease, and try and dabble in every facet of it. The judging, and building of the correct bikes is probably the most challenging though, well, that and waiting for Carl on his slow Knuckle heads at the Road Runs! : )
Sorry for such a long saga, but it's great to see everyone chiming in with such great points of view. I'm very proud of being part of this club that recognizes all facets of our beloved machines.
Happy Friday! RF.