New AMCA Judging Criteria Introduced at Eustis

[Sargehere]

Here is a perfect example. Ebay item#130371253781 Seller claims this bike scored 97 by AMCA. This is what I see incorrect just from the photos. Color of gas tank, Badges on gas tank, decal on gas tank. Placment of decal on oil tank. Wrong mufflers. wrong headlight, Should not have center stand.(side stand only) Missing rim locks on rear wheel. Wrong fork boots. wrong plug wires. missing amber front reflectors. I feel sure there is much more .
I see no way this bike scored a 97. But seller claims he has judges forms. The current bid of 6K is at least 2K over "true value" .

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...iewitem=#v4-34

[AFJ]

Here is a perfect example. Ebay item#130371253781 Seller claims this bike scored 97 by AMCA. This is what I see incorrect just from the photos. Color of gas tank, Badges on gas tank, decal on gas tank. Placment of decal on oil tank. Wrong mufflers. wrong headlight, Should not have center stand.(side stand only) Missing rim locks on rear wheel. Wrong fork boots. wrong plug wires. missing amber front reflectors. I feel sure there is much more .
I see no way this bike scored a 97. But seller claims he has judges forms. The current bid of 6K is at least 2K over "true value" .

I beg to differ on many of your criticisms, since Triumph specification varied from Eastern to Western US to Home market to Canadian market and general Export market. Which specification are we dealing with here?

Also the bike may have been in different form with different components when judged as to the form it is in now when being offered for sale.

And the other factor. Most people who have a bike "restored" want a bike which is much more a showpiece than what was originally turned out by the factory. They want some "perfect" icon to worship. This means, for the person doing the "restoration" work, to get involved in replacing some components with new ones (not necessarily reproductions) which may not be exactly as originally fitted, but which are cosmetically "better".

The basic problem with the AMCA judging system is that it attempts to judge in relation to an ideal standard of original specification and perfection for a particular make and model of a particular year of production. But for many makes and models of motorcycles such a standard of consistent specification and perfection over even a single model year never existed. And in many cases such factory records and data as exist do not provide any way to confirm exactly how a particular motorcycle or batch of motorcycles was equipped when it left the factory.

The only sane alternative is to base all judging on a relative basis, comparing the bikes - of particular make and model - which are on the particular judging field that day to one another, rather than some ultimately undefinable "holy grail" of excellence.

AFJ

[T. Cotten]

The basic problem with the AMCA judging system is that it attempts to judge in relation to an ideal standard of original specification and perfection for a particular make and model of a particular year of production. But for many makes and models of motorcycles such a standard of consistent specification and perfection over even a single model year never existed. And in many cases such factory records and data as exist do not provide any way to confirm exactly how a particular motorcycle or batch of motorcycles was equipped when it left the factory.

The only sane alternative is to base all judging on a relative basis, comparing the bikes - of particular make and model - which are on the particular judging field that day to one another, rather than some ultimately undefinable "holy grail" of excellence.

AFJ

That is not a sane alternative at all.
The mission of judging should be to do justice to History.
Tossing it away for a beauty contest format would make an AMCA award mean about as much as an Easyriders trophy.

The historical failure of the the Club has has been to reinforce the intent and meaning of its own judging system.
To this day, it is still overwhelmed by a trophy-I-beat-you mentality, in spite of no machine-upon-machine competition written into it at all!

....Cotten
AMCA #776

[AFJ]

That is not a sane alternative at all.
The mission of judging should be to do justice to History.
Tossing it away for a beauty contest format would make an AMCA award mean about as much as an Easyriders trophy.

The historical failure of the the Club has has been to reinforce the intent and meaning of its own judging system.
To this day, it is still overwhelmed by a trophy-I-beat-you mentality, in spite of no machine-upon-machine competition written into it at all!

....Cotten
AMCA #776

You're welcome to your opinion - as I hopefully am to mine.

The idea of a mission to "do justice to History" assumes that the history, in this case the actual specification and original condition, is known and documented - and available. Which , for many makes of motorcycles, is not recorded completely and is therefore unknown (except by hearsay) and therefore not reliably available.

Concours judging of motorcycles, which I have been able to trace as far back as the late 1920s, seems to have been basically a "beauty contest". But invariably being held after a substantial motorcycle ride to a destination. These days the motorcycles being judged, in some cases, have been sneaking in to the judging area without even being at least seen to run, let alone being actually seen to complete a run on the open road. I suggest that future AMCA judging should only be done on motorcycles which have completed a road run appropriate to the age of the particular motorcycle immediately before entering the judging area.

I would agree that the AMCA has not managed to communicate the somewhat noble intent of the judging system, as originally conceived. (Judging against ideal type as opposed to head-to-head or relative judging.) This failure is not really related to the judging system or the people involved but is mostly due, as you say, to the competitive mentality of the owners of the bikes being judged, compounded (in my view) with the fact that these days, money, ego, reputation and human mendacity are increasingly involved.

The AMCA Judging system was a noble, if (in retrospect) a somewhat naive attempt to preserve what some people in the club valued as significant history while improving an outdated and somewhat subjective earlier judging scheme. Unfortunately perhaps, some of the members failed to understand its aims, preferring to manipulate the new system for their own purposes. The waiver, as published, clearly indicates the problems which the AMCA Judging system, and those volunteering as judges, face from legal action by such people.

AFJ

[Greg H]

That dissclaimer document seems real long winded, maybe to keep it simple just have as part of the registration a statement along the lines of..
Any awarded clasification by AMCA was deemed correct & valid for that day/date/time the judging took place.

Negates any problem with alterations after bike is wheeled away?

[Lonnie]

The bigger problem, as I see it, is that establishing the authenticity of the VIN of any motorcycle being judged is up to the knowledge of the judges on hand at that event on that day. While I read that the intent of the AMCA is to expand that knowledge base, including even those unusual and rare motorcycles, that knowledge is not available at this time. So, while the Hogs and Indians and more common makes are subjected to extraordinary scrutiny, due to the broader knowledge base, and could perhaps be disqualified for inconsistencies, the other models of which less is known are to get a free pass just because the judges on hand do not know what is correct and incorrect regarding VINs? No single person, even a Chief Judge Extrardinaire, can know it all and it is not logical to expect that there will be people at every event that can properly make a determination.

The logical solution is for the Club to compile a directory for each and every model showing the known variables for the VINs. But is this practical? If so, how long until this directory is available at every meet? And what in the meantime, does a lack of knowledge equate to the free pass? Or should such motorcycles, until more is known regarding correct VINs, be refused judging?

Further, if a motorcycle appears at a judging and it is determined that the VIN is incorrect, i.e. had been changed, what then? We all know that it is a federal offense to alter or even register a vehicle with altered VIN. So, in this case the person making the determination has a decision to make - do they report it to the proper authorities, since they are now aware of a motorcycle with an altered VIN? Can they be held liable if they do not?

I feel certain that the reason this has not been addressed in the past is that the AMCA did not want to delve into that level of detail - if the VIN is not "judged" (except that the details of the motorcycle correspond to the vehicle year) then no possible liability could be incur. However, that genie is now out of the bottle.

You might say that I am being paranoid, but folks, we are in the era where Big Brother has his hand in every aspect of our lives. Do not assume that, as a judge, you are protected from liability regarding the VINs. Ignorance is NOT bliss.

[Carl Olsen]

I have built numerous high point AMCA restorations and my take on it is why don't we just get rid of the whole judging thing and get on em and ride em.

How many of you people have actually been on an AMCA Road Run? Once you partake in this aspect of the club, judging will not be so important and the riding and comradre of the members will be foremost.

Carl

[Knotthed]

I know this is a very controversial topic, so don't chop my head off.

I would have to agree with Carl a little on this one.

Here are my thoughts:

I for one would like to see the effort that is put into judging be used for a more productive outcome for the club and motorcycle history. Imagine if years ago, the judging event/time slot was used to document these machines. There are many knowledgeable older people in the club that will not be there forever. We should capture this knowledge instead of letting it pass us by. "A copy of a copy is never as good as an original!" I am very sure that the same thing happens with judging and things don't get passed down the same. A pictoral of a specific bike and their intricasies could be developed for each model and a revision level of each of those kept for all members to see and revised as appropriate. Then if someone wanted to persue restoring a bike they would be able to use this guide. If you wanted judging, the judges could use this guide. The guide would also be there to preserve history about the bikes. I'm not saying make a guide for each individual vin machine, but by year and model would be appropriate as they are made. I know there are experts for various different models out there - call so and so about that type of thing. If these were divided up between everyone they could be done relatively easy. Like a very detailed book report so to speak.

I for one see this judging thing blowing up with all the new bikes that will be available to be judged.

Perhaps the bike shouldn't be judged until the pictoral standard is developed. The bike can be brought to the meets for development of the standards if one has not been developed.

I'm not sure if the club has a mission statement, but this is what I found on the very website that I am typing this on.

************************************************** ********
"Who We Are
We could bore you with facts and figures, membership size, age of the club, etc., but what it all boils down to is this... having fun with Old Iron! Networking in this club means rubbing elbows and turning a few wrenches with fellow club members who share your passion for old bikes.

Enjoyment of this hobby can take many forms, depending on your level of interest. If detailed restoration is your main concern, you will find club members with similar interests eager to lend a hand. Assistance may come in the form of supplying that elusive part you've been searching for, or answering technical questions such as the correct color for your machine.

Getting back to rubbing elbows, what better place than at one of the nine national meets spread throughout the country. Here’s your opportunity to peruse the swap area, get a little silly participating in the field games, or enter a bike for judging and perhaps earn your just reward for all that sweat you spent on its restoration.

Perhaps feeling the wind in your hair is your idea of a perfect way to spend a lazy summer afternoon. There's a local chapter of the Antique Club near you, filled with people who have wind blown hair and the occasional oil stain on their boots.

If a longer ride would better suit you, sign up for one of the four annual national road tours. Here you and the family can enjoy some beautiful scenery and put a few miles on your bike over a four-day period. All club activities are designed so the entire family can participate.

Have we sparked your interest? We hope so. "
************************************************** ********

[RichO]

Carl

You know how I feel. Hope to see you in PA. at the "grand canyon" ride. "If you don't ride it, hide it"! Way Out West

[flat-happy]

most of this sounds like bikers vs investors. i'm glad i'm a biker. i've never shown a bike in my life and never will. i don't even understand the mentality. i was a judge once at a local show and lost 5 friends because of it. all i did was judge the bikes for what they were but they haven't spoken to me since. i thought it was the mentality of a 3rd grader on the school ground stealing lunch money. i'm just gonna ride mine---hopefully with carl again one day

[jke]

Carl , Knotthed, RichO, flat-happy
Your takes are the the REAL THING>>>>>> Thanks for piping up.
John K. Endrizzi
P.S. For a great example, ALL AMCA members are invited to attend the Knucklehead Reunion VIII at the Harley Davidson Museum on July 10,2010. It is a RIDE IN show with a special trophy to the longest distance rider. The AMCA Badger Chapter will be running the Field Games.

[indianut]

That's where I'm at. I have Vintage Motorcycles and I travel on, and Ride them. I have never had a bike judged and couldn't care less. though I do like looking over the Judging Field. But, these guys who treat their Pans and 101's like china dolls, wiping down the TIRES after Pushing it from the van to the Judging field crack me up! They are Missing the Real Fun of Vintage Motorcycling and in addition to not realizing that, they probably don't care. All they want is the A.M.C.A. Pedigree. I wish these Motorcycles had NO monetary value! Then it would Eliminate the money guys who have ruined it for the rest of us. We who bleed 50WT could keep building, riding, and servicing our Iron without having to pay $300 for a decent used 1937 Chief brake drum! Look at the pictures on our site 'Flathead Owners Group' and see who it looks like is having more fun, us with our Historically Imperfect Antique Motorcycles, or the guys who are fretting over the Judgment of the 'Men in Orange Vests'.

[fillibuster]

Awww Carl! see what you started?! What will Matt think?! Some people's parents!
I have to agree on the riding, if not for riding I wouldn't hang out.
But as I've aged, and since old Pete passed on especially, I have a hankering to build a restoration piece. I dearly want to score a junior 7th (if I can get that lucky!).
Actually, I mean to be serious about this, and I think it's in keeping with the club's mission statement to pursue judging improvements and practice judging til the cows come home. If the latest changes take a while to perfect, well no problem here, it took me a while to get perfect too!

[D.A.Bagin]

I feel the diversity of activities in the club is what makes the club attractive to me. Whether i have a bike judged, go on a ride. walk around at the meets or volunteer countless hours for the club its all fun. I ride all my bikes. whether its a 1/4 point less than perfect or the one they stopped judging because they reached 60. Its all fun. I like seeing old friends at the meetings or meets and meeting new people that enjoy the same hobby I do. Remember, this is supposed to be a fun hobby.

[redfred84]

full spectrum of enjoying the machines

Wow, everyone sure has some great input on this. I started off as a skinny, broke, snot- nosed kid with my first bike (which I had to hide from my parents). I still have it, my '47 Chief. I finally got it running, and tie wired & taped it together for a few years, learning the entire time (I'm still learning). I made my own up-swept fist tails for it, and thought I was cool.
Eventually, I started to do some of the mechanicals in a more professional manner, which resulted in farther explorations. The bike was transforming from a local bar hopper, to a road racer. I hit my first AMCA Road Run quite by accident, when I attended the early DJ Run in Durango Colorado. I thought it was going to be a swap meet! I was pretty dissapointed in the lack of parts, but discovered riding with other old stuff was a blast (all my local buddys rode shovel heads, which were new then). So I got hooked at an early age on the Road Runs. I guess I started off with period modifieds.
I then happened across and old Sport Scout project, and got it running with Chief flywheels, and knobby tires. It was my dirt bike. Had a blast, but it was a rough cobbled up collection of parts. Around this time, interest started stirring on the vintage flat track scene, with Dick Bugsy Mann holding a Vintage event here in Calif. I got the fever, and converted my pile into an amature racer. all the while trying to promote races via the AMA, and my local SFMC. Almost pulled it off. Then the 1/2 mile at Davenport became the mecca for this sort of stuff. I was there for the very first event, and won my heat, despite a broken throttle cable. My buddy/nieghbor Ricky (now on the AMCA Board) tie wired the throttle to my arm, and away I went! The worst let down in the world is taking your racer all the way to Davenport from CA, only to have the event rained out. That happened twice to us.
Not long after that I became fat, bald, and stiff; plus there was no where to get any practice laps here in San Francisco. So I tried my hand a restoration attempt. What a challenge! It was very interesting doing all the research, homework ,and hunting for those elite, special parts. Then I hung out for a judging at one of the meets and learned a ton of stuff just by following the likes of Toney Watson, and Robin Markey around (I wish these guys would write a book).
Soon Kevin Valentine grabbed me, and put me to work. I have never thought of the judging as uppity. It's really an appreciation of an all out dedication for the preservation of the machine.
Thus, I have contracted the full on desease, and try and dabble in every facet of it. The judging, and building of the correct bikes is probably the most challenging though, well, that and waiting for Carl on his slow Knuckle heads at the Road Runs! : )
Sorry for such a long saga, but it's great to see everyone chiming in with such great points of view. I'm very proud of being part of this club that recognizes all facets of our beloved machines.
Happy Friday! RF.