New AMCA Judging Criteria Introduced at Eustis

[D.A.Bagin]

I've had 5 different bikes judged going back to the 80s. My first bike was judged by "The good old boys method". Didn't recieve anything but alot of stares from people wondering what I was doing with so and so's old bike. Then the judging changed to the point system and I decided to give it another go. The bike is un-restored other than an old wrong color paint. I put it in "Original class". Deservedly so, a 6 point reduction for paint. This was right when they changed the judging from the previous method so the 6 point reduction for paint has always been there at least for original machines. Another of my bikes was judged and when the vin was looked at a question came up. A fast look at the belly confirmed a mis-match. Disqualification. I'm no expert and had the bike for many years but fully understood the reasoning for disqualification. Had the belly matched the year they would have judged the bike. Their reasoning was the are not the police and if the vin is a good job,(which it was they told me), and matched the belly, they would have judged it. Im all for tougher judging but I believe it should tougher on original bikes. Mis-matched year belly and vin, Disqualification. Bad vin, same thing on ANY bike. From reading what Sarge said, and I thank you Sarge for your time, I'm in agreement with most of what they want to do. FACTORY replaced cases in a RESTORED class should be allowed. Factory frames should be mandatory For Winners Circle. Original bikes should have all their as left the factory the first time components. Just my 2c D.A.B. #3166

[LouieMCman]

Sarge, was there any mention of signing a release in the future to have a bike judged? I had a bike in the winners circle at Eustis and saw a copy of one but was not asked to sign one. Good job on the explaination, there was a lot of rumors flying around. Thanks.

[Steve Slocombe]

Dear All, Rocky Halter and Steve Dawdy are in Daytona promoting the AMCA this week, so I'm sure they'll put us straight on the details when they return. The Board voted in some new judging rules last Friday, and Rocky tasked Steve D with implementing this enhanced system as our new Chief Judge. The rules were to enforce the old rule that judged bikes must run; a six point deduction for repro frames (was zero for best available repro); six point deduction for repro motor top end (was zero); no repro engine cases; all bikes to have good numbers (correct font, no messed up number bosses).

Rocky turned up at 8 am on a freezing Sunday morning at Eustis Judges' Breakfast to address about 40 of us. He said the judges were the technical heart of the Club and we were doing a great job. Rocky is more of a swap meet and Road Run guy, and I don't think he realised just how much skill and effort goes into our AMCA judging, but he certainly does now. We set to with a will, and a couple of bikes that would not start were not judged, while two bikes with bad numbers were removed as Gerry has related. We finished an hour earlier than last year, the prizes were given out, and we all went home after another great day.

Our judging system dates to 1991, we're all amateurs, and the system was vulnerable to professional fakers trying to pass off replicas as big money AMCA-authenticated originals. By tightening up our rules I believe we're defending ourselves against the fakers, and maintaining the Club reputation as the gold standard for preservation of examples of real antique bikes.

[rwm]

i hope it didn't really take 2 yrs. for the club pres. to see how hard judging is.

[Chris Haynes]

OK, Now they are all set up to judge Harley serial numbers. What about Indian, Pope, Henderson, Yamaha, or any or the other thousands of motorcycles out there? They are trying to stop the re pop motorcycles from qualifying. I know of several non H-D motorcycles in reproduction frames who have won Senior First and are probably in the Winners Circle now. What about those?
What about the Harley owner who had damaged engine cases and the dealer replaced them with new genuine H-D cases that were shipped from the MoCo unstamped? Or a military machine that now has blank cases? All genuine parts the same as came from the factory when new. Same thing with a frame that was damaged and was repaired/replaced?
I think there has to be a lot more thought put into these new rules.

[Sargehere]

Sarge, was there any mention of signing a release in the future to have a bike judged? I had a bike in the winners circle at Eustis and saw a copy of one but was not asked to sign one. Good job on the explaination, there was a lot of rumors flying around. Thanks.

Thanx, Louie. No mention at Eustis of any release form. I know that we had our hands full just implementing the new judging rules, and if there were any release forms to fill out, it would have been something you signed with "the ladies," when you entered your bike.
No, I haven't heard of any releases. I came home and got right on this cum-pyooter, and typed my brains out while it was all still fresh in my mind. It certainly made an impression on me, yesterday. I was hoping to dampen down all those rumors that we all knew would fly.
I knew nothing of any changes until sitting down at the 3 pm judges, actually called "Apprentice Judges'" meeting on Saturday afternoon. I just wanted to see what I might need to know, and it turned out to be one of the turning points in the history of AMCA club judging! I think Steve Dawby and Steve Slocombe should be congratulated for doing such an amazing job of getting everyone oriented to the new system in that short a time. I'm glad, too, that we're weeding out the "funny numbers." That's something that's bugged me for years.
I think it worked out pretty well, overall. And I don't doubt the rules will continue to shake out, as we get experience with this new system. I've judged under all three club judging systems, and I know I like this new turn the best of all.

[Sargehere]

OK, Now they are all set up to judge Harley serial numbers. What about Indian, Pope, Henderson, Yamaha, or any or the other thousands of motorcycles out there?

That's all being addressed, too, Chris. Like I said someplace up above, there are club members working now on getting the number dope on all makes, on at least three continents.
Just since this came out, I heard from a Canadian member who offered, well,

"If you ever need confirmation of the engine or frame numbers for a British motorcycle (in regards to AMCA judging), including some of the less common makes, please contact me. I have a lot of stuff in that line."

So, rest easy, Chris. This is the best antique motorcycle organization in the world. That data is out there, and it's already being offered. Notice, he didn't say "I have that stuff on line," he said, "I have a lot of stuff in that line." So, don't get all excited yet, Chris!

They are trying to stop the re pop motorcycles from qualifying. I know of several non H-D motorcycles in reproduction frames who have won Senior First and are probably in the Winners Circle now. What about those?

The "Winners' Circle Preservation Awards" might actually kick in, in some of those cases, to identify some Winners' Circle Bikes that no longer qualify for the title. But, remember, the minimum "maintenance" score for Winner's Circle is only "85+ points," and a repro frame is only six points off, not a disqualification from judging. That would be kind of a way to "grandfather in" what already is, while we're raising the bar for future winners.
But, it might serve us well, also, to take a closer gander at the VIN stamps on some of those Winners' Circle bikes, when they come back for their subsequent Preservation Awards, as we are doing to bikes on the judging field, from now on, eh? I mean, instead of just a cursory glance, and signing their Preservation sheet.

What about the Harley owner who had damaged engine cases and the dealer replaced them with new genuine H-D cases that were shipped from the MoCo unstamped? Or a military machine that now has blank cases? All genuine parts the same as came from the factory when new. Same thing with a frame that was damaged and was repaired/replaced? I think there has to be a lot more thought put into these new rules.

I think that's about covered in the new definition of "restored," Chris: "Restored back to how that bike came from the factory the first time."
Another way to say that, is that there are just some circumstances under which some bikes will never, ever, make Winners' Circle ("6-pointers," being all of the cases you bring up). You know how some kids get the polio, or asthma, or something, and they just can't play football? They still have the same team spirit, so they become trainers, or work at the stadium ticket booth, or sell drinks at the concession stand.
Well, some bike meet "accidents" in the course of their long lives, like blowing an engine, or sometimes the bike is repaired by replacing the frame after it runs into a streetcar, eh? Or, some fool took the original heads off that 1950 Panhead and put Shovelheads on it, thirty years ago, and sold the the old heads. Now, all the present owner can find are repro heads.
Even though this is America, where every garbageman's son or daughter can aspire to be President of the United States someday, not every one does; and not every bike, 100% of the attempts, can rise to the Winners' Circle of Excellence. That's what makes it special. "Exemplary of the marque and year." You have to accept that some bikes, in the same way, just won't make it, will never make it, due to "unavoidable circumstances."
The award Junior First, I believe, is going rise in prestige, to become a new goal for this class of motorcycles: Put togethers, bikes with factory replaced frames or engines, or other "High Visibility Items." That army WLA with an unnumbered crate engine (put a detectable funny number on it, however, and it will never be judged; it will be disqualified right on the judging field). A demonstrable "replacement engine," however, like a blank boss-WWII surplus crate motor, is only a 6 point deduction.
Does that explanation ring for you, Chris?

[bmh]

This all sounds like a step in the right direction. But I must wonder who will be charged with keeping all the information we will need to amass. Who will conduct the lengthy courses to teach all this to our ever changing judging staff? While most of the discussion seems to be centered on restored machines, am I to take it these new rules apply to original machines as well? Personally I would hope so. I would actually hope that original machines be held to even higher standards. The striving to increase ones score to increase perceived value does not lie solely with the restored machines. Greed is an equal opportunity employer. I actually think that making any changes to an original machine from its as found state should be highly discouraged. I've even seen parts swapped out right on the judging field. Was that nicer whatever really identical to the scratched & dinged one it replaced?? Guess we may never know now.

[Steve Slocombe]

Dear Chris, Brian and all, there is certainly work to do on the judging system, and we have a Committee made up mostly of National Deputy Judges to prioritize what needs to be done and then get on with it. As you say, we need to do more work on a database of non-Harley engine numbers, and check for factory records on British, European, and Japanese engine/frame number combinations. We also need guidelines for judges in order to give us more consistency, so that for instance incorrect shape spoke nipples doesn't get zero, a quarter or a two point deduction depending which judging team looks at the bike.

On previous awards, I can't see a hit squad of judges breaking down your door to take back old trophies. However, if a displayed Winners' Circle bike won't start or (gulp) has bad numbers, then some hard decisions will have to be made. If you have strong views, or think you can help in any way, don't just post on this Bulletin Board but send your comments to Steve Dawdy. He's come in with an open mind, so now is the time to influence him and the Committee with your views on the future of AMCA Judging.

[droptopford]

I too would like to give a big "Thank You" to you Sarge. Your explanation was well thought out, concise and well written. I am also on the side that believes these changes are going in the right direction, although some of the 'con' arguments have merit.
I have a few antique bikes that I am very proud of but would never think of having them judged by the AMCA. I don't need that stamp of approval to validate the worth of my machines. I would however, love to have the benifit of the AMCA's knowledge with regard to 'bogus numbers'. Is there anyplace on-line (AMCA archives?) or in print where proper H-D numbers can be researched. A complete collection showing the proper shapes and styles of each model-year's numbers would be a big help in avoiding disappointments for those members who do want to have their bikes judged. I suppose that tool would be a two-edged sword though, as it would aid the bad-guys too.
Also, as some of us discussed in another 'numbers' thread, bogus numbers are a little more serious than just a judging matter. Here in the 'Buckeye State', if the troopers get wind of any 'numbers' inconsistancies, they will happily confiscate the bike in question. That bike will then be euthenized at the local recycling yard if it's owner can't provide proof-positive that the numbers have never been altered in any way.
In some ways, the folks who, through the expert eyes of the AMCA judges, discover that their treasured machines have bad case numbers should be mighty thankful. They at least still have the possiblity of finding unaltered cases and starting over.

[D.A.Bagin]

Droptop, I believe Chris Haynes has a VERY good site for numbers. D.A.B. #3166

[LouieMCman]

number stamps vendor

Did anyone see the guy selling number stamps on the vending field! He even had them labeled for what make bike they are to be used for....HD, BMW, ect. I don't know anything about them but had to stop and look. Were they correct for the makes? Can anyone comment on accuracy? Thanks.

[LouieMCman]

release form

I got a copy of the release form, it even referenced the state of Florida laws. I'll copy and post later.

[Erdos]

Correct me if I am wrong but don't the australian frames have the hallmarks? I know the v-twin version doesn't. Here some images of the 46/47 frame components from: http://www.raceframe.com.au/bullneck30.html

[droptopford]

Thanks D.A.B. The Haynes site does have a VERY good section with good reference photos. This may not be the 'official' end-all authority, but it is a great source. Thanks again and thanks to Chris Haynes.