Cast welding - failure.....

[AdminGuy]

I used nickel rod, pre-heat, post heat. Everything clean between runs. Welder set on about 120. Looks like a didn't get enough penetration as the side stand on my 640 Sport scout has snapped off during a test tonight.

It was welded top and bottom.

I'm very bummed out as it's a long process to weld.

Can anyone give me some tips? Maybe just hit again with more current for deeper penetration? Buy a replacement from Mike Breeding? Or whomever owns his company now. What to do?

Should I just use a bolt on jiffy stand of some sort? This is killing me. Help....

[AdminGuy]

maybe instead of gussets under it. I'll try the steel stud trick.

Looks like the welds I did under it were not great and too little. So I need to concentate on this area. Which is really difficult to get to.
I used the heat method.

http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowl...ronpreheat.asp

The side stand casting on a 640 sport scout has torque, Twisting torque applied to it sometimes. So a casting never really worked that well from what I understand.

Some guys have told me to carve the casting out of steel and age it to look like cast, then weld in place. Seems like alot of work. Too much work.

any advice welcome.

I've got two heavily ticketed welders local who will not touch it. Not worth it for them. I'm on my own.

[c.o.]

Can you post a pic of that kickstand of yours??? Is it the same style as my '41? I've got one out in the shop that won't fit my bike, but I think it may be mid-thirties???

[inrustwetrust]

Not to be a s------ --s, but why not gas weld it with steel rod? The heat soothes and mends the material Correct me if I'm wrong, but these are drop forged, just like a kick starter. I have welded broken kick start levers together and they have held together fine. On top of that , I consider myself a marginal (at best) welder. The key to a good gas weld repair is letting it cool slowly. I take them and wrap them up in fiberglass house insulation and come back to it the next day. Anyhow, hope you get past this litle setback.

[Tom Lovejoy]

Post a picture, youve got me interested too. Believe mine is the same, a 40 frame. Could'nt you buy another from the parts guys, I would be surprised if Bob Stark did'nt have one. I bet theres welders out there that could do it no problem - I would think, just has to know his stuff and or care. I have had bad luck with welding castings, but I take my casting stuff to a pro and thus far no problems. Hopefully some one in the know will be along soon.

[AdminGuy]

As embarassing as it is to see the horrid weld I did. Here it is- have a good laugh.

I believe that the lug is sand cast. The side stand arm seems to be drop forged.

[AdminGuy]

here it is. I need help.
I think you can clearly see I got little to no contact on the bottom.
I'm going to grind it down and give it another shot. This time -maybe I'll try to correct the stance of the bike on the side stand.
Or maybe put an insert into the arm like S.Blankard indicated in that tech article.

Had to lay the bike right down on the left side on a Micky Thompson used race slick for a pillow. To get under it.

Piece of sheet metal stuck inbetween the lug and the alum primary to protect it from the heat.

Next option would be to hoist the whole bike in the air.

Maybe I should make my V on the bottom this time and weld the bottom first. As that needs to be the strongest.

Don't have an oxy / acet torch. But I do have 5 bucks for more rod. Fiberglass insulation is a good tip . Thanks.

My lady friend likes the finger nails clean. Wish I had never shown her the Burt Munro movie.

[23JDCA 808]

I took a welding course back about 1962. They told us that you didn't want to grind on cast iron as it spreads the metal's carbon content all over, and you can't weld to carbon. You might want to search the internet for other instructions.
I sold my welder as I was only using it about once a year; practice makes perfect and I couldn't keep my quality. ...bill

[Kojack]

I'm about 99% certain that the stand is not cast iron. It's cast steel. There's a difference. Cast iron is too brittle for motorcycle parts and is rarely seen outside of the cylinders. I've welded a few frame parts and use steel techniques. Preheating is good for welding cast steel but you wouldn't need a high nickle rod. Low hydrogen is good but I've even used a cheap mig with good results. Try this link, there are some nice tips to help you ID the material: http://www.esabna.com/EUWeb/oxy_handbook/589oxy16_1.htm

[indianut]

I have fixed several Indian side stands with a torch and brass rod.

[portagepan]

This reminds me of a time, long ago...................... It was in the mid 70's, and i was working at the old Jeep plant in Toledo. That's Ohio, for you furiners. A friend of mine broke the downtube on his Pan frame. I took it in to work, and put a hardened Jeep clutch shaft inside of it, and welded it up. Smoothed 'er down, and took it to the paint shop. For some beers, I got it painted and baked, and done by lunch. He couldn't believe it. I used a good mig welder. Another time there, my old Norton dropped its side stand right off. The mill wrights brought the "crash wagon" out to the gate, and we did it right there, with a stick welder. If you're not in the middle of the ocean, throw a rock, and you are bound to hit somebody that can get that back on! Your penetration should be at least 1/3 the thickness of the parts. It'll be stronger than anything else around it.

[AdminGuy]

I think it's grey cast iron. Course crystaline structure at break.
It was strong. Just a poor weld and not enough penetration.
Little leary of useing brass rod. I know it can be done.
My local welders are too busy. Not something they are interested in fooling around with on the side. To much time - too little money. It could fail again.

Thanks guys.

[Paps]

If it is iron, it was the wrong route go go for such a part. Cast steel would have been more appropriate for the application. My suggestion is to find a foundry nearby who can cast you a steel one. They can use your old one as a pattern. Of course you will have to bond the pieces together for pattern usage. Some shrinking will occur, but not enough to keep you from making a good one out of the new casting. Just a thought.... Paps

[bar]

You got no penetration into the mating parts. You might do a spark test to determine the material you are working with. A good welding book has the spark patterns in it to help you.
First clean the metal which it looks like you did. I've had the best luck with a carbide burr as it leaves no contamination in the weld area like a grinding wheel can. Make a deep V so you can penetrate through the root of the weld from both sides. The trick here is to be able to hold the two halves rigid while you do your welding. Then consult a welding handbook or a welding shop for the correct current for your rod. Tig would be my first choice followed by Mig and then a DC welder if possible with an AC unit as last choice. 7018 rod would be the best for stick welding followed by 6011 or 6013 (deep penetration). You can use 7014 or 7024 if you don't want to go with 7018 for the rest of the weld as they weld easy and fill quickly. Do a pass first on one side and then on the other to minimize warpage with a cooling period between passes to make it easier for you to work in the area of the weld. Hope this helps. Your profile says you are in the northwest. If this is so look me up and possibly you are close enough to consult in person. The neighbor is about to graduate from welding school and does beautiful welds.

[Kojack]

"Course crystaline structure at break. "

That doesn't really mean anything. Cast steel will look the same when it breaks as will just about any cast material. Bar's method is the standard procedure and should work fine for the steel that stand is made from. Breeding's replacement stands are also steel.