Otis Chandler "1907" Harley in Fall Issue

[silentgreyfello]

Ok, well I think I understood your previous stance on the '08 factory bike is that the 1909 style fork was definitely, positively incorrect. My stance was that there is not any proof one way or another that they could have changed to the 1909 fork late in 1908. Do I have proof of that? No, I don't, and I am not convinced that they did. I am saying it is possible.

As for s/n 1872, it exhibits all the features of 1908. It has the ribbed fenders, fuel filler in front, rounded tanks, later sager fork, and exhaust cutout.

The battery box has obviously been repainted (hopefully the guy trying to match the paint was fired), but I wonder if the whole bike was repainted as well? Check out the lower leg of the fork. No nickle plating. s/n 2037 has the plating. The earlier sager fork pictured in the commonly published photo of Walter in the spring of 1907 in front of the woodshed shows the whole front leg nickled and the bottom of the rear leg nickled (like the 1908's lower rear). I wouldn't think that they would use nickle on the early sager fork, then later sager forks without nickle (1872), then back to nickle plating on the laster sager fork (2037).

I am more confused than ever because s/n 1872 has all the features of 1908 but that is an awfully early s/n. #1981 has the features of earlier bikes (early sager, no exhaust cutout, smooth fenders). Something has been changed at least one if not both of the bikes. On s/n 1872, perhaps when the factory obtained the bike, they found a rolling chassis, and matched it with an earlier motor? Just a theory. As for 1981, I think it merits a closer look.

[c.o.]

This should give a few folks something to talk about........... Check out item# 300087433152 on e-bay. While your at it check sellers other items and look at the second machine..........

[sveger]

At the Creation

Have got the book and finnished reading it tonight, GREAT reading, almost like if I was there when it all happened.
Thanks a lot for this great book Herb.

[HarleyCreation]

Re: At the Creation

Originally posted by sveger
Have got the book and finnished reading it tonight, GREAT reading, almost like if I was there when it all happened.
Thanks a lot for this great book Herb.

That's EXACTLY how I felt researching and writing it. I felt that Bill Harley and Davidsons were alive again and young guys. Or as Earl calls them, "the boys." I grew up just 20 miles away from the Juneau Avenue Factory which proves that you CAN go home again!

Turn-of-the-century Milwaukee was a very special place and the bikes we love so much are a legacy of that. Not just Milwaukee either, but that time period in general for it's innovation and discovery of the internal combustion engine and the rather wacky notion of slipping one into a bicycle frame.

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by c.o.
This should give a few folks something to talk about........... Check out item# 300087433152 on e-bay. While your at it check sellers other items and look at the second machine..........

c.o.

You continue to find stuff to keep this thread alive!

Personally I like the looks of this "recreation" job which is clearly marked as such. Harley's basic design, but in the improved 1909+ version.

You'd be riding in style on this baby!

Isn't this paint scheme from the Feilbach???

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by silentgreyfello
Ok, well I think I understood your previous stance on the '08 factory bike is that the 1909 style fork was definitely, positively incorrect. My stance was that there is not any proof one way or another that they could have changed to the 1909 fork late in 1908. Do I have proof of that? No, I don't, and I am not convinced that they did. I am saying it is possible.

I have learned that with early Harley-Davidson never to say never. That said, however, my working principle remains: What is more likely?

In the absence of proof that they changed to the 1909 (1910?) fork on the 1908 model late in the model year, I think that it's more likely that they did not do so.

If the Factory collection bikes were above reproach in all other respects it might be another matter, but the many incorrect parts on these early jobs and the manner in which they have changed their model years over the decades and more recently their appearance in some cases (SNO#1 & SNO#2), makes the authenticity of an 1908 with a 1909 (1910?) fork even more doubtful unless supporting evidence can be found. I do remain slightly open to this possibility but only if this vital and necessary supporting evidence can be found.

Originally posted by silentgreyfello

As for s/n 1872, it exhibits all the features of 1908. It has the ribbed fenders, fuel filler in front, rounded tanks, later sager fork, and exhaust cutout.

The battery box has obviously been repainted (hopefully the guy trying to match the paint was fired), but I wonder if the whole bike was repainted as well? Check out the lower leg of the fork. No nickle plating. s/n 2037 has the plating. The earlier sager fork pictured in the commonly published photo of Walter in the spring of 1907 in front of the woodshed shows the whole front leg nickled and the bottom of the rear leg nickled (like the 1908's lower rear). I wouldn't think that they would use nickle on the early sager fork, then later sager forks without nickle (1872), then back to nickle plating on the laster sager fork (2037).

I am more confused than ever because s/n 1872 has all the features of 1908 but that is an awfully early s/n. #1981 has the features of earlier bikes (early sager, no exhaust cutout, smooth fenders). Something has been changed at least one if not both of the bikes. On s/n 1872, perhaps when the factory obtained the bike, they found a rolling chassis, and matched it with an earlier motor? Just a theory. As for 1981, I think it merits a closer look.

Yup, and here we go again on another spin of the Factory collection bike Merry-go-Round!

There is nothing wrong with your thinking. The problem is with the BIKE!

We know what a 1907 should look like because we have that original photo of Walter taken in front of the big woodshed plant on Chestnut in the first half of 1907. THAT is an authentic 1907 model without doubt. Other 1907 photos and evidence back that bike up.

From your descriptions, #1981 seems to conform to 1907 specs for the most part (wish we could see it!) while #1872 is almost certainly another post-1919 parts bike Harley found or cobbed together for display purposes only. It has a low engine number that likely is a 1907, but its MANY 1908 features give it away as a cob job.

Again, it would be different if all these early Factory collection bikes were ORIGINAL production, but we know for a fact that they are not. They were acquired years later from the riding public and we all know what guys do to their bikes. And these earliest jobs were obsolete JUNK so quickly that Harley was probably happy to find anything close enough to piece together for display purposes. From the bikes themselves, we can conclude that almost certainly Harley took whatever strap-tank "junk" came their way on the cheap and they didn't put much time, money, or effort sorting it out.

We experienced this EXACT same thing with the early "official" history researching and writing the Creation book. The "official" version of events was so confused and muddled that you got dizzy trying to make it work until you had to give it up as an impossible task and start over from scratch.

These strap-tank Factory collection bikes are same way!

NONE of them are authentic, original, or reliable by AMCA judging standards based on good historical research and more original existing bikes.

The reason for this embarrassment is simple: Harley-D in 1919+ didn't intend these bikes to be accurate and therefore they are not!

[sveger]

Originally posted by HarleyCreation


That's EXACTLY how I felt researching and writing it. I felt that Bill Harley and Davidsons were alive again and young guys. Or as Earl calls them, "the boys." I grew up just 20 miles away from the Juneau Avenue Factory which proves that you CAN go home again!

Turn-of-the-century Milwaukee was a very special place and the bikes we love so much are a legacy of that. Not just Milwaukee either, but and the rather wacky notion of slipping one into a bicycle frame.

I would like to respond once more to this thread, this time regarding what Herb states as "that time period in general for it's innovation and discovery of the internal combustion engine".
This is something that have made me think several times the last couple of years. Imagine back early 1900 century beeing the Harley & Davidsons, Curtiss, Merkel or others in this bussiness or any other related bussines. They innovate, draw, engineer, supervise making of cast plugs, moulds, casting, lathe and mill work, heat threating, pipe bending, sheetmetal, bracing etc etc.
What I try to say is, I try to restore some old American motorbikes and it takes all my time even if I can use internet and e-mail to get close to people on the other side of the globe to get parts or help for those.
These guys had to write a letter and wait for its answer beeing returned and travel by using train, bicycle or horse.
OK there where foundries and toolshops in every small town but what machinery did they have? Belt driven, no CNC and 3D cad or what ever.
People are clever today, but I really admire what these guys did overcome.

When did they sleep, eat or reproduce?? I dont understand it and never will.

As an example I will mention a story I read in a Swedish magazine some years back, there was a guy that made himself a motorbike in the early teens (he could not afford buing one, hence he would have to make it), he actually had his son rotating his lathe and drill press by pedal power. And yeah, he made a multi cylindered engine when he was on to it anyway.

Where did they get all their skill from?
They studied and did read books. I recomend anyone playing this "old motorcycle game" to read some of the mechanical engineering books from late 1800`s. They are packed with knowledge still usable.
My personal favorites are Peder Lobbens (a Norwegian that went to US to work) handbooks for the Mechanic and Toolroom worker,
written in Fitchburg Mass, in 1893. They have 1196 and 991 pages!!
Well I got a bit carried away, will end this thread here.

[koanes]

Sveger, I think we can blame those innovative, industrious, no sleeping, no playing people of that time period, for our lack of productivity today. Those same people are responsible for developing the electronics that tie up so much of our time every day. One could argue that the time we spend in front of a screen is voluntary, but is it really? I wonder what kind of world we would live in if there were no electronicaly transmitted communication. If someone took my TV, my radio and my computer away I'm sure I would find more time in the day to think and do.

[HarleyCreation]

Those guys were "mechanics" in the old time sense. In similar fashion I have always been amazed at the frontier gunsmiths who built rifles from scratch from scrap pieces of iron, etc.

In the 1890s & early 1900s there was a general feeling in the air that invention had no limit and that you could do something as good or better than the next guy. Without TV, etc. to distract them these guys were constantly tinkering. They also had basic skills like old time farmers had.

A good example of these old time "mechanics" is Sveger's fellow Norwegian Ole Evinrude. He worked for several different companies in the 1890s in Chicago, St. Louis, etc. learning the ropes before coming back to Milwaukee around 1900 to build his own engines. At night Ole studied engineering & manf. techniques and gas engine principles out of books to the point that his fellow workers thought him "kookie." Ole already had knowledge of gas-engines when Bill Harley and Arty Davidson began working on their project. Ole is one of the very few guys that H-D traditionally acknowledged helped the boys.

The Davidson brothers (namely Walter and Bill) learned their skills in the West Milwaukee railshops where entire locomotives were built from scratch. By comparison, a motorcycle may have seemed small potatoes.

The story that the first Harleys were built in a 10x15 foot backyard woodshed is without doubt another myth. No matter how good those guys were, they wasn't a foundry in there!

[HarleyCreation]

Ed Youngblood's MotoHistory webpage has this writeup about the "new" Timeless motorcycle.

If I had big bucks I'd get one of these jobs and ride it around here instead of my XT500 dirt bike.

It seems like we may be witnessing a new trend in the repro antique bike field on a mass-production basis:

(Snip): http://www.motohistory.net/

Specifically, a limited production run of 1,000 units of the Timeless has already begun...

Hanlon is careful not to misrepresent his product or tread on the intellectual property rights of certain people in Milwaukee. He says, “I make no suggestion that this is a Harley-Davidson. It is modeled after an early Harley, but it is a Timeless. I think my customers will appreciate what it is in its own right; not claim it is a restored Harley or try to pass it off for something it is not.” Although it replicates 1910 state-of-the-art fabrication in many ways, there is one significant departure. Mike explains, “I am just amazed at the workmanship in an early Harley-Davidson. The sheet metal was 28 gauge steel, which is fragile and very hard to work with. Those guys were some craftsmen to build decent looking tanks from that material.” He adds, “We decided to take an easier and more durable route, and our gas tank is an aluminum casting. Otherwise, we have tried to use original materials and processes throughout.” A few parts, such as the leather saddle and drive belt, are outsourced, but everything else is built from molds and patterns made by the Hanlons, including the tires. In all, over 150 molds were built before the Timeless could go into production, and the brass carburetor alone has over 50 parts.

The Timeless comes in two versions, a street bike with swept-back handlebars in black, and a racing version with drop bars and no fenders in gray, as shown here. Faithful to its 1910 inspiration, nickel plating – not chrome – is used. The bike can be purchased fully assembled or as a kit. It is totally functional, although it cannot be registered for the street because it does not comply with modern emissions regulations. Hanlon says, “Because of its belt drive and limited speed, a person should never expect to ride this bike in modern traffic conditions. It is intended to be a collectible for those who admire what motorcycles were like at the beginning of the last century. I expect some owner will fire it up and show it off on the grounds of an antique meet, but it is not built to be taken out on the street.”

Why would the Timeless, a little single with technology circa 1910, debut at a big V-Twin show? Hanlon explains, “We've had some of our keenest interest from V-Twin builders and dealers. This is an industry of craftsmen, builders, fabricators, and creative people. They are just the kind of people who understand and can appreciate what our industry's forefathers did to get a totally new product on the road.”

[silentgreyfello]

Timeless

Here is their website... pretty cool bikes. Much nicer than the replica whizzers. Frame downtube is bent different than a 10 HD, but otherwise looks pretty darn close.

http://www.timelessmotorcompany.com/vintage/

They are planning on building 1000 of these??? Wow. I think they will have to price them like a whizzer to sell that many.

[jurassic]

original pic

another pic i found

[jurassic]

another original

this is a nice original pic that just surfaced on ebay a while back

[jurassic]

earlier pic

i always assumed this was a 6 bolt motor ,because of the fork and smooth fenders

[jurassic]

early pic

it is hard to tell anything about the engine on this bike,except that it does not have a intake valve spring cover.notice the unusual headstock badge sticker,i have seen one other of these on a 1909.it looks like the anhueser busch eagle kinda.also i'm not sure ,but there may be an exhaust cut out lever,very hard to tell though.