Otis Chandler "1907" Harley in Fall Issue

[jurassic]

sager fork attachment

this is the new fork for 1835,in my opinion the harley sager attachment and the universal sager attachment {the ones advertised in the magazines for all motorcycle use}were the same ,only the attaching bracket was different for the harleys

[23JDCA 808]

I sense the detail can be pulled off of that dark motor; someone with a scanner and a feel for rescuing dark detail should be able to help you. ...bill

[silentgreyfello]

early sager fork

I guess I was calling your style of fork the early sager, but different than the ones that attach to the rear legs as opposed to the triple plates. Attached is a photo of Walter's bike in the spring of '07. Note the smooth fender and the attachment goes to the lower triple plate. This also is the same as the #1982 bike. It would be interesting to know the s/n of Walter's!

[silentgreyfello]

walters sager fork

One more photo closeup. I have an 11x14 from the glass negative, so I was able to zoom up pretty well. There are two white spots on a portion of the horseshoe (near side) that I can't figure out what they are... I think it is a problem with the negative or a reflection, but you can clearly see the far side of the horseshoe attachment go to the lower tripleplate. The horseshoe then bends under the lower triple plate and a bolt goes through the three plates to attach the horseshoe on the bottom. While this member is in tension when you hit a bump, it is still a very weak point. It must not have taken too long to figure that out.

[silentgreyfello]

dark photo

Jurassic, If you send me a full sized photo (not 600 pixels) of the strap tank with the dark motor, I can zoom in and lighten with Photoshop to count the motor bolts. I tried with the photo you have posted... I could see the motor, but it was too grainy to count them because of the low resolution. I don't think I will be able to lift the s/n though!
email: oldmtrcyc@msn.com

[silentgreyfello]

numbers mixed

Sorry, I mixed the numbers... #1981 and Walter's have the same fork. Earlier, there was discussion about the HD factory's 1872 and I inadvertantly referenced 1982, when it should have been 1981. It is still my guess that 1872 is a pieced together bike. Too many numbers... time to hang it up for the night.

[Earl]

Re: sager fork attachment

Originally posted by jurassic
this is the new fork for 1835,in my opinion the harley sager attachment and the universal sager attachment {the ones advertised in the magazines for all motorcycle use}were the same ,only the attaching bracket was different for the harleys

Hi Jurassic,

Is this new fork, a new restoration, or a new reproduction??

Nice looking front end, in either case !!!

[jurassic]

new ,old sager

1835's sager fork is a reproduction,as is the whole chassis.unfortunatly the local dealer no longer stocks these parts.

[HarleyCreation]

Re: new ,old sager

Originally posted by jurassic
1835's sager fork is a reproduction,as is the whole chassis.unfortunatly the local dealer no longer stocks these parts.

That '07-type fork could probably be put on display in a modern art museum and win a prize, although obviously it belongs on a bike.

Nice work!

I notice you guys are calling these a "Sager fork." Is that because you think Sager built them for Harley or because this type of spring fork was Sager's invention?

A while back that question intrigued me and I started pulling out original information on early Harley spring forks and who probably made them, but then got sidetracked.

The question is: When did Harley start making their own spring forks?

Did Sager make any/some/all (or part) of them in 1907 & 1908 or did Harley make them? Also: Who designed the improved 1908 Harley spring fork? Sager or Bill Harley?

[HarleyCreation]

Re: early sager fork

Originally posted by silentgreyfello
It would be interesting to know the s/n of Walter's!

The most we know is that your photo of Walter in front of the first wooden plant (on Chestnut St.) was taken during or before late July of 1907.

We know that because at that time a cropped version of your photo appeared in the "Milwaukee Journal" newspaper. From that we can conclude that the bike is pre-August production.

But how early is it?

You seem to have a really good copy of this photo taken from the glass plate neg. There seem to be flowers blooming in the photo. Is that correct? If so, that would further narrow down the time frame of this critically important photograph.

[jurassic]

1835

1835

[silentgreyfello]

photo - chestnut street

The flowers are in bloom in the photo. Spring of 1907 is my guess.

As for the fork, I have read about the "Improved Sager fork for 1908". I assumed that it meant made by Sager, but I guess Harley could have made it under a licensing agreement using the Sager name in advertising.

The attached style Sager that clamped onto the rear leg was first offered for bikes in 1906, according to advertisements. I have seen only one picture of that style on a Harley, but numerous photos show the "wishbone" attachment style as shown on #1835 and the Chestnut Street photo.

There is another style of Sager that attaches to the fork stem just below the triple clamp but above the bearing race where the jam nut would go. I can't figure out how it would have screwed on... it must have clamped on, but why wouldn't it mash the threads unless it was threaded. I will look for the photo. I do remember it was a smooth fendered Harley, but I don't recall the other details of how many bolts on the motor, filler on side or front, etc, etc.

Very nice bike, Jurrasic, including the fork! Are you going to bring it to any meets? If not, when you are done, please post some photos here!!

[jurassic]

sagers

in my opinion sager had one product in the early days,and many different attachment brackets that would attach that product to many different bikes.notice in this ad they also made an attaching bracket for the early diamond frame indians.i am sure ,indian did not make this bracket or attachment.in my opinion harley did not make the attachment or bracket for their 1907 bikes ,but bought them from sager,just like they bought their rear hubs from thor,and their front hubs from eclipse,their oiler from lunkenheimer,their rims ,seat ,etc.

[HarleyCreation]

I'm not sure when flowers start blooming on the west side of Milwaukee, but they do bloom all summer. I'll take a rough guess that the photo was taken between sometime in May to late July when it was first published.

This may sound a little nutty, but if we could identify the TYPE of flowers in the Walter/Chestnut photo, we could maybe find out the earliest in the season they bloom in Milwaukee and how long into the season they keep on blooming. We might narrow down the month that the photo was taken that way to determine how far into the production year that bike is.

Who'd a thunk you'd need a botany degree for early Harley research?

[HarleyCreation]

Re: sagers

Originally posted by jurassic
in my opinion sager had one product in the early days,...in my opinion harley did not make the attachment or bracket for their 1907 bikes ,but bought them from sager,just like they bought their rear hubs from thor,and their front hubs from eclipse,their oiler from lunkenheimer,their rims ,seat ,etc.

Did Sager produce other parts besides the fork attachment?

Seems to me that maybe he did and that I have that info somewhere.

But yes indeed, quite right, Harley did purchase outside parts from many different firms. There's a long list of them from 1907 on p.106 of the Harley Creation book, including something from another motorcycle building firm: ARMAC of Chicago.

Here's a vital clue about Sager.

On p.107 in At the Creation, the existing 1907 Harley account book (preserved by Arthur Davidson), states: "Lang paid J. Harry Sager's bill for us." This entry was made on June 10, 1907 and the amount was for $233.90.

The name "Sager" jumped out at me right away when I first saw it and that sum is quite a lot of money for 1907. It PROVES that in mid-1907 Harley indeed bought something from Sager, but exactly what?

Very likely the order was for spring fork parts. But I just wonder if there was anything else Sager was selling that Harley might also have bought? If we could rule that possiblity out, then it would almost be certain Harley was obtaining spring fork parts from Sager in 1907.

1908, however, is a different matter....