Otis Chandler "1907" Harley in Fall Issue

[HarleyCreation]

#1835: Impressive Black Job!

If I'm reading the thread and posts correctly, The strap-tank black bike just above is #1835 under restoration/rebuilding, right?

It's beautful and fully exhibits that early Harley-Davidson mystique and no mistake!

I wonder. Has anyone studied & measured that motor #1835 (lowest number known?) to determine if it has distinct differences/changes when compared to higher numbered motors esp. above #2000?

If we could verify distinct differences & updates in below #2000 (1835) Harley motors and above #2000 Harley motors, then we would have more evidence that around #2000 was the dividing line between the 1907 and 1908 models.

That would be a very valuable addition to our knowledge of the late strap-tank era.

[jurassic]

1835

from what i understand 1835 was compared very closely to 2037.there was a slight difference in the way the cam cover of the later model fit ,or did not fit ,the earlier engine.i dont think it was any major change in the casting though ,only the way each particular motor case was machined.one thing i noticed is that the face of the exhaust port flange had the vin number{1835}stamped in it.

[jurassic]

2177

parhams 1908

[silentgreyfello]

Parham's 08

Note that the picture of Parham's 08 does not have the toolbox on it. Two owners prior had taken the toolbox off, as he had never seen a strap tank with a toolbox. He thought the toolbox was off of a 1910 or 1911, but later found out it didn't fit. The toolbox is now reunited with the bike. The bike was purchased in the late 70's from a HD dealer in Rockford, IL. It resided in Florida until 2000, where it moved on to IA and then sold again to Parham in Anamosa, IA. It is in the museum.

His museum is VERY impressive. He has a nice orig paint 1909, two 1910's, orig paint 1911, two orig paint 12's, one a single, other is a twin, and so on.

The most impressive bike (to me) is the very mint orig paint 1912 Henderson that he recently acquired. There are probably 150 bikes or more. Many pre-16, but also later stuff including Euro and Japanes bikes, especially the unusual.

[HarleyCreation]

Re: 1835

Originally posted by jurassic
from what i understand 1835 was compared very closely to 2037.there was a slight difference in the way the cam cover of the later model fit ,or did not fit ,the earlier engine.i dont think it was any major change in the casting though ,only the way each particular motor case was machined.one thing i noticed is that the face of the exhaust port flange had the vin number{1835}stamped in it.

Thanks for that info.

When 1835 and 2037 were compared did that include internal measurements and parts too?

[HarleyCreation]

In an earlier post we wondered who built Harley's spring/cushion fork in 1907.

Did Harley build the 1907 spring fork? Or did Harley obtain parts for it from J. Harry Sager in Rochester, New York?

Note: When we say "spring fork" here, we are probably referring to the front leg only -- the "cushion" part -- and not to the back rigid leg that Harley had been building or procurring (in Milwaukee?) since 1905.

We know that Sager ads from around 1907 tell that the Sager fork attachment (front leg) was used on several brands of motorcycle, including the Harley-Davidson.

Earlier, in 1900, "Motor Age" tells that Sager was known for his "bicycle saddle" and for the Sager "roller-pin driving gear" for bicycles, whatever that was.

In late 1906, Sager pops up again with his spring-fork invention, he patents it, advertises it for a couple of years, then drops out of sight.

We already knew that in 1907 Lang paid Sager's rather hefty bill for H-D, but that didn't state what item Harley was getting from Sager.

Fork parts or what?

So I went back into my notes from the Harley account book from 1907 that Arthur Davidson saved. Sure enough, I found a few additional entries that didn't mean much the first time around or that I overlooked.

Because they clarifiy the 1907 spring-fork question I quote them here:

June 3: Paid express charges for parts from Sager & Crosby Co.

Hmmm....more parts, but again what parts? Was Sager partnered with a guy named Crosby at this time? Who was Crosby?

June 8: Package from Sager

More stuff from Sager; again what?

June 19: Paid express charges for recoil springs from Sager

Ah hah! Now we're getting somewhere. Recoil springs from Sager must almost certainly be for the spring/cushion fork. But was Sager's involvement just springs or something more?

May 25: Paid cartage on spring forks -- 50 sets

There it is! Spring forks coming in from some outside source, and while Sager is not specifically named in that entry, who else would they be from in light of the previous entries naming Sager so many times?

Looks like in May of '07 sales were coming in fast and furious and Harley had to order a whopping 50 sets of forks at one time. That's a lot when you figure total 1906 production had been only around 50 bikes.

From this entry we can see how certain components were obtained in batches, probably depending on how many orders were coming in. It's possible that such batches could differ from each other in minor or in important respects. Such a change could come from either end. Either Harley asking Sager to make a change; or Sager telling Harley that some change had been made.

If Harley built 150 some bikes in 1907 as "officially" stated and 50 spring forks were ordered in this one batch, that leaves another 100 fork attachments coming in at different times and in different quantities, and possibly not built to exactly the same specs.

Here we have solid evidence of how Harley operated in the mysterious Woodshed & strap-tank era. Too bad all our questions weren't that easy to answer.

The 1908 pattern Harley fork is another matter. It was changed in 1908, but who was responsible for that change and who built it? Unfortunately we don't have an account book from 1908 to guide us....

[23JDCA 808]

"roller-pin driving gear" for bicycles

"The shaft connecting the crank-axle and the hub-gears is provided at each end with a pinion having roller-pin teeth, which engage the wide angle openings between the gear-teeth of the sprockets. This method of propulsion is particularly efficient when the pins are made in the form of rollers, for then the minimum of friction is reached, since it is then a rolling instead of a sliding friction. Each set of gears is enclosed, but should they become exposed, the action of the pin-teeth forces out any mud or dust particles that may accumulate upon them."

[martin]

hey 23JDCA 808,
I think your in the wrong time zone.

As for sager, they only made one type, clamp on. harley made their own in 1908 and after. I know cause I worked at the factory back then. Started in 1903, retired in 2005. They gave me a leather jacket and a water bottle for 102 years of service.

[c.o.]

Now that post was kinda funny.......Was the jacket weathered or was it shiney new???? I'm thinking though that you don't use that bottle for water.......

[silentgreyfello]

Martin's bike

Hey Martin,
Is this your ride?

[c.o.]

Now that's funny........ Let me guess is that an early teens Moo-Glide?????????

[silentgreyfello]

Why, yes, it is a moo-glide! They are very rare. He replaced the double clinchers with some late model mag wheels. The udder may be a 1923 Holstein. Other than that, it is very correct.

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by martin
harley made their own [fork] in 1908...

I tend to agree, but we need evidence.

If you know of any please post it.

[HarleyCreation]

Re: "roller-pin driving gear" for bicycles

Originally posted by 23JDCA 808
"The shaft connecting the crank-axle and the hub-gears is provided at each end with a pinion having roller-pin teeth, which engage the wide angle openings between the gear-teeth of the sprockets. This method of propulsion is particularly efficient when the pins are made in the form of rollers, for then the minimum of friction is reached, since it is then a rolling instead of a sliding friction. Each set of gears is enclosed, but should they become exposed, the action of the pin-teeth forces out any mud or dust particles that may accumulate upon them."

Is that a description of the Sager bicycle "roller pin driving gear"?

If so, where does it come from?

Almost sounds like a patent description.

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by silentgreyfello
Why, yes, it is a moo-glide! They are very rare. He replaced the double clinchers with some late model mag wheels. The udder may be a 1923 Holstein. Other than that, it is very correct.

It looks more like a Gurnsey to me and I'm from Wisconsin!