Otis Chandler "1907" Harley in Fall Issue

[exeric]

I think Jurassic made the most profound statement in saying that no factory ever produced all of their changes on January 1st. Excelsior was a great example of that. I would also like to say that this thread is among the most interesting and informative I have ever followed. This is exactly what makes the AMCA a great club, the willingness to share hard found knowledge with the membership. Herb and Earl are a gift to this club.

[Chuck#1848]

I have to second that statement.
I also have learned more in this thread on the earlier motorcycles and how as a group each person is able to help in tracing and pinpointing certain items to help in identifing the model year of this bike.
Congradulations to ALL involved in this!

[Earl]

Re: strap history

Originally posted by jurassic
this thread is definatly worthy.i do believe we have made much progress in identifing some of these early harleys.this info is obviously important ,as it appears we may be discussing possibly the worlds most expensive motorcycle.although the one year difference may not change much,in terms of value.thanks to mister wagner and his research we are able to evaluate some of the facts.i do believe his book ,or a follow up ,would be made much better with a study of the motorcycles that are still in existence.as i have learned ,close study of a real machine is the best reference.as far as i can tell only 5 six bolt engines exist today.the six bolt being the earliest of the harley line.these engines did not have serial numbers.does anyone have photos of the six bolt engine that harley recently acquired??i have documented the other 4. as for # 2037 is appears that it is probably a 1908.the fenders are 3 3/4 inches wide,the bottom of the tank is rounded,and the fork is of the later sager style.the photos of the 1908 restored bike that paul posted is an original engine with a reproduction chassis.it is number 2113.and the carb is numbered 2022.also,this is just my opinion,but no factory ever made all their changes on january 1st,and i'm not sure that factories back then actually advertised new models in september ,as they do today.especially with a fledgling company like harley , whose production was so limited.most changes were made from bike to bike,as we can see in later year models.i am going to call JP's museum tomorrow and try to get the serial number of his original 1908.so herb are you ready for a road trip,or a second book.

This thread has become worthy, because of everyone's sincerity, honesty, and willingness to research "what was" and compare to "what is".

Jurassic stated that he is aware of a total of five, 6-stud motors.

That agrees with the number that I am aware of. In my opinion, there are some differences in these motors that I think help draw a line between production runs and model years within this group. In Herbert Wagner's book, "At The Creation", the probable Motor Company chronology was put together for us, as we now understand it........

1903.....small motor in bicycle frame.....pictures of this machine have not yet been found

1904.....large motor in loop frame prototype.....Negative # 599 machine. This motor and machine have not been found to exist today in any collection.

1905 model year.....production starts, generally accepted numbers vary between 5-8, depending on source..... In my opinion, there are two existing motors that fall into this group. First, in the Lobby Bike, later renamed as Serial Number One, owned by Harley-Davidson. Second in this group is the motor owned by Bruce Linsday.

1906 model year.....production generally accepted as 50.....In my opinion, there are two existing motors that fall into this group. First, in the machine owned by Harley-Davidson, that used to be tagged as their "1905", which recently went through a transformation, as seen on page 17 of the book by Willie G. Davidson, "100 Years of Harley-Davidson". The second motor that falls into this group is in the machine that is owned by Lonnie Isam, Sr.

That adds up to Four original 6-stud motorcycle motors. The Fifth original 6-stud motor being the Buckboard motor that was acquired by the Factory after surfacing a few years ago in LaCrosse, Wisconsin. I was able to take pictures of this motor before the Factory acquired it, and as soon as I can figure out how to get my pictures to attach, I'll post them to this thread. In my opinion, this motor has some features unlike any other 6-stud motor I've studied.

Jurassic, does my list agree with yours??

1907 model year.....production generally accepted as 150.....Some individual "real" 8-stud motors have surfaced.....Ongoing study underway gathering of motor numbers, observation of features, to help draw dividing line between 1907 and 1908 model year motor numbers.......

I'm with Jurassic.......hey Herbert, how about another book ???!!!

[HarleyCreation]

1907 & 1908(?) Fork Comparison Link

Thanks guys. I too am enjoying this topic and appreciate the good information and comments posted by everyone. An interesting book could certainly be done on these early jobs and what is correct and what isn't using a combo of existing bikes and old photos. But publishers would say that interest in this real early stuff is small and that would be right.

Anyway, I like the old photos because if they can be dated accurately, that gives us a original snapshot from the past; almost as good as having a time machine. Then comparing photos with existing bikes can tell us plenty. Altho like jurassic said, changes can also come mid-season and that's true.

If the Chandler Auction bike had just one 1908 feature it would be a dicey call, but when it showed several 1908 features that seems to tip the balance.

I'm surprised how few original photos there are of the 1907 model Harley for identification purposes. And if restorers in the past (and present) didn't have that material and looked instead at H-D's collection 1907 model THAT would open up another can of worms!

It's good that we have a couple of complete and seemingly original 1908 models to examine. That Chandler bike is a real treasure and from the looks of it so is #2037. It would great to see all the existing early six- and eight-stud Harleys (1905-1908 tank strap jobs) lined up together.

And as Earl mentioned, the 1904 prototype (Neg. 599) bike is still out there somewhere waiting for you guys to find it. Considering the value of the Chandler bike the 1904 proto would have to be the first million dollar motorcycle!

Here's something I whipped up showing the Sager forks on the 1907 photo bike side-by-side with the Chandler Auction bike forks. I'd say we're looking at another 1908 update.

What do you guys think?

http://www.atthecreation.com/fork.co...K.COMPARE.html

[c.o.]

I'm no expert by any means, but I think that we're looking at forks from two different years. What would the odds be of changing the fork mid-year in those days???

[Earl]

Re: strap history

Originally posted by jurassic
......as far as i can tell only 5 six bolt engines exist today.the six bolt being the earliest of the harley line.these engines did not have serial numbers.......i am going to call JP's museum tomorrow and try to get the serial number of his original 1908.....

Hi Jurassic,

How does my list of early motors compare with yours?

Any luck contacting JP for his serial number?

Someone told me that they thought he had TWO early strap tank machines..........any comment on that?

Thanks,

[surfdude]

fellas -- this is an awesome thread and thanks for sharing the knowledge. don't know all the prices, but the collection brought in some big money:

Chandler's prized collection sold
Bidders from across the globe snap up all 170 cars and motorcycles in the Oxnard museum. Top price: $2.6 million for a Duesenberg.
By Rong-Gong Lin II, Times Staff Writer
October 22, 2006


How much was Otis Chandler's storied collection of vintage automobiles and motorcycles worth?

More than $36 million, as it turns out. At least, that's what bidders hailing from as far away as Europe and Asia collectively agreed to pay Saturday for the late Los Angeles Times publisher's collection at an Oxnard auction.

ADVERTISEMENT"This is one of those great moments" for car collecting enthusiasts, said Larry Crane, the Thousand Oaks-based editor of Auto Aficionado magazine. "Otis didn't collect just great cars; he collected the great cars.

"It's not a big collection," Crane said, "but it may be the most important collection for sale in a long time, and perhaps for a long time to come."

Saturday's auction featured 80 motorcycles and 90 automobiles spanning a century of history, including a 1904 Mercedes 40/45 Sports Touring car, which sold for $2.4 million, and a 1931 Duesenberg J Special Phaeton, which fetched the top price, $2.6 million. Many are extremely rare: Chandler's 1933 Packard 1006 Twelve Sport Phaeton, for instance, is one of only three in the world, said David Gooding, president and founder of Gooding & Co., the auction manager.

Word of the sale triggered worldwide attention. The company allowed some bidders to monitor the auction by telephone, and screens set up in the cavernous museum marked bid prices not only in dollars, but also in British pounds, euros, Swiss francs and Japanese yen, according to company spokesman Fred Hammond.

The auction broke the record for a single collection sale on a single day, he said. The previous record was a 1990 auction, which earned $21 million.

Nine cars from Saturday's auction sold for more than $1 million each, and two sold for more than $2 million each.

The first edition of Chandler's legendary collection began in 1968, when he bought a 1931 Duesenberg for $35,000. Several years after selling that set of Cadillacs, Ferraris, Packards, Porsches and others to meet the financial terms of a divorce settlement, he began anew with another 1931 Duesenberg, buying it for $1.2 million.

By 1990, Chandler had placed his collection in his Vintage Museum of Transportation and Wildlife in Oxnard, the 45,000-square-foot building where the auction was held. He later lent some of his motorcycles to the Guggenheim Museum, which opened its "Art of the Motorcycle" exhibit in 1998.

Chandler, publisher of The Times from 1960 to 1980, is credited with transforming the once-parochial newspaper into one of the nation's best. He died in February at 78.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ron.lin@latimes.com

[surfdude]

here was the list of what was for sale. you can click on each item to see the pics and writeup:

http://www.goodingco.com/auctions/ca...lot_index.html

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by surfdude
here was the list of what was for sale. you can click on each item to see the pics and writeup:

http://www.goodingco.com/auctions/ca...lot_index.html

The auction being yesterday, we should be hearing shortly what the "1907" (1908) Harley fetched.

On the auction list I also see that Chandler owned a:

"1901" Indian F-head Single

Fancy that!

[jurassic]

chandler auction

i just got some figures from the west coast.it appears the chandler estate lost money on the 1907 strap tank.the final price was 320,000.00,which is less than otis paid for it originally.not to mention he had it restored at considerable cost . word has it the auction on the strap tank had a wrench thrown in it.it appears that someone showed up at the auction with an orignal paint 1907 in the back of his pickup truck.he was asking 200K ,and bartering it around the auction.i guess the auction company didn't take this too lightly.and removed the guy from the premises.this could only happen in hollywood.

[Dkgoz]

Any word on what the 1901 Indian went for?

Too bad the Speed channel didn't televise this auction. Seems like they pass over all the motorcycles for commercials during the Scottsdale auctions in January.

Dave

[jurassic]

the early indian went for $150,000.00,they had it listed as a 1901,but during the auction listed it as a 1903.not sure what was the discrepency on that.another note,the 1911 harley twin brought 170K,and the M&M twin only got 120K,as did the curtiss twin.so i guess the harleys did alright.

[Dkgoz]

Thanks for the info.

Do you know if there was any mention by the auctioneers of the Harley being (or even possibly being) an '08 instead of a 1907?

And who was the owner of the original paint '07 in parking lot?

Sorry for all the questions, but this is really interesting!!! Wish I could have been there.

Dave

[c.o.]

Interesting!!! What are the odds of an '07 showing up in the back of a truck....pretty wild.......I too wish I could have been there!!! Herb we need that book!

[HarleyCreation]

Gosh, this does sounds like a book; or a soap opera!

Only $320,000 for the 1908 ("1907") Harley?

Has the big bucks peak been reached in the antique bike collecting market? This auction had world-wide appeal.

The 1903 (not 1901) Indian makes more sense. I've heard that Hendee(?) himself told that the original 1901 Indian was dismantled and cannibalized for parts. I believe that's right.

But the 1903 Indian "only" went for $150,000? That sounds "cheap" by comparison. Interesting too what the Curtiss twin, etc. went for.

Could the bloom be off in the high buck end?

And an original paint "1907" showed up in the back of a pickup truck on sale for $200k? Whoa now! I hope somebody got some photos of that bike along with the serial number!

What next?