Otis Chandler "1907" Harley in Fall Issue

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by LouieMCman
I started looking myself and found early serial numbers for HD and Indian in issue #1 of the 1964 AMCA magazine. It did not have any numbers for 1907 and stated that 1908 numbers were below 2500, so it looks like 2037 could be a 1907 or 1908. The info with by Jim Lucas and was probably the best guestimate of the time and still may hold water today. I also looked in "The Legend Begins" which didn't have any serial numbers listed.
Interesting that Indian production numbers are listed from 1901 (correct or not) and HD numbers seem allusive, even though the company is still in business.

You nailed the problem!

The 1907-1908 models being numbered below 2500 is from an "early" (from the 1920s at least) official Harley-Davidson source.

After that we are on our own.

That is why looking at the features of this very excellent original #2037 would go a long ways with matching known model year features with an authentic serial number. It would better document this bike and the historical knowledge about this hazy early period.

[jurassic]

pics

i tried to email the pics,they keep coming back.

[HarleyCreation]

Re: pics

Originally posted by jurassic
i tried to email the pics,they keep coming back.

I hope you can get those larger photos to post.

That bike may be one of the most important Harleys in existence as people whose opinion I value have told me it is original and not messed with like so many other early bikes have been.

[Earl]

I had some email correspondence a few years ago with the Otis Chandler folks, and in one of their emails, they said that the motor number in their machine was........

drum roll please.........

Serial Number # 2042

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by Earl
I had some email correspondence a few years ago with the Otis Chandler folks, and in one of their emails, they said that the motor number in their machine was........

drum roll please.........

Serial Number # 2042

Nice work Earl!

Since the serial numbers of these two bikes are so close (2037 & 2042) it would seem that they are almost certainly the same model year. Now we just have to find good detailed photos and determine what their features tell us.

1907 or 1908?

[HarleyCreation]

The Otis Chandler auction ad (p.61 Fall Antique Motorcycle) gives the auction company website as:

http://goodingco.com/

Okay, so I went there thinking they should have a bunch of closeup photos of this nice looking "1907" Harley (#2042) up for auction.

However when I clicked on "enter" it took me to a new page that downloaded for like 5 minutes but the page was still blank when the download was done. Nothing there.

Maybe they have a filter that weeds out poor guys and only lets rich guys in.

Anyone have better luck getting pix of #2042 off that site?

http://goodingco.com/

[LouieMCman]

Here's the link to the bike....only estimated at $350,000 to $450,000.

http://www.goodingco.com/auctions/ca...r06/lot23.html

[Earl]

Here's some info directly from the HD web site:

"1908 Walter Davidson scores a perfect 1,000 points at the 7th Annual Federation of American Motorcyclists Endurance and Reliability Contest. Three days after the contest, Walter sets the FAM economy record at 188.234 miles per gallon. Word of Harley-Davidson's extremely tough motorcycle spreads rapidly.

The first motorcycle sold for police duty is delivered to the Detroit, MI, Police Department."

We should note that the Chandler Auction write up says that the bike was originally a Los Angeles police bike. I wonder what their source of that information was? If that's true, and it was bought directly from HD, then that would tend to make it a 1908 model, based on info from HD web site, which says that the first motorcycle sold for police duty was in 1908.

I have some copies of some early Harley sales brochures, and have also looked at some other early period literature to note the differences between model years 1907 and 1908.

Here are some major differences between the two years:

Fuel Tank:
1907 sales brochure, lists size as 1-1/2 gallons, and the picture shows the gas filler on the left side of the tank.
Cycle & Auto Trade Journal - 2/01/08, lists fuel tank size as 2 gallon, with rounded bottoms, larger filler, and the machine depicted shows the fuel filler in the front of the tank, not the side.

Fenders:
1907 sales brochure, lists size as 3 inches wide (IMO, this is the same size listed as for 1906, and period 1906 pictures show a smooth fender, so possibly 1907 fenders were also smooth)
1908 sales brochure, lists size as 3-3/4 inches wide, of new design (IMO, probably a stepped fender)

Fork:
1908 sales brochure, lists the fork crown plates being 1/2 inch wider than 1907.
(I measured the lobby bike years ago when it was at York, at 3-3/4 inches. Here we have to assume that 1906 and 1907 were the same width, then 1908 would be at 4-1/4 inches. Both of those measurements would be centerline-to-centerline of the fork tubes, and also the handlebar posts)

Muffler:
1908 sales brochure, lists muffler as also having a lever operated cut-out.

Belt tensioner:
1908 sales brochure, lists multiple adjustment points, rather than simple on or off as in previous years.

So there we have it. Some simple fender & fork measurements, and an observation of gas tank bottoms & filler location, number of belt tensioner adjustment points, and muffler cut out, should reveal 1907 vs. 1908 heritage.

Comments??

[LouieMCman]

So, looking at the pictures from the auction do you think the bike is a 1908 ???

[HarleyCreation]

Adding to the fine data that Earl posted, I can add the following:

1908 H-D Catalog:

1908 model has improved spring fork with "heavier sides, larger springs."

1908 model gets "entirely new and original design" [mudguards] 3-3/4 inches wide with front EXTENDING 12 INCHES AHEAD OF FRONT FORK

"Cycle & Automobile Trade Journal" 1 Feb 1908, p.160: "The tanks now used are rounded and the filler holes are larger than here-tofore, being large enough to admit the largest funnels. The new 'Standard' rubber pedals...are used. A hand operated cut-out is fitted to the muffler on the 1908 machine. The lever that operates the belt-idler now works in a slot which is provided with adjustment stops so that the tension on the belt can be held at any desired degree, while formerly the lever would only stand at full on or full off position."

The 1907 Harley-Davidson illustrated in the 1907 H-D catalog and the pix of Walter on a 1907 outside the mud-street Juneau Ave. wooden single-story factory def. shows a much different bike.

We need to get some photos up....

[AdminGuy]

Here is a shot of a 1908 from Jurassic Lonnie. Thanks Lonnie.

Loved that Knucklehead Greatness article. Well done!

[HarleyCreation]

Original 1907 H-D Images

I'll try to post a couple original 1907 Harley images to help illustrate the differences between the 1907 and 1908 models.

This first comes from the 1907 Harley-Davidson sales brochure or catalog. It shows the belt side. In front of the "H" in Harley (ahead of the strap) you can see the filler spout located on the SIDE of the tank (1908 had it in front of the tank).

On the Chandler auction bike (p.61 Fall Antique Motorcycle) you can easily see the filler spout is at the FRONT of the tank (sort of hiding behind the top frame tube), which was a 1908 model year update.

Also on this 1907 image this appears to be the original version of the Sager spring fork as applied to the Harley-Davidson motorcycle. 1908 literature claimed that year was given a more heavy duty fork.

[HarleyCreation]

1907 Harley-Davidson Photo

This is a cropped photo of Walter Davidson on a 1907 model around the time or before he won the Milwaukee Auto Derby in July of 1907. We can accurately date this photo from the Juneau Ave. (Chestnut) single-story wooden Harley factory in the background in the full photo (ATC p.109). That building was not finished until December of 1906. In this photo the building is finished and occupied. Since this same photo was used to illustrate Walter''s Auto Derby win in July it must have been taken in the first half of 1907. This image shows the timer side of the bike.

In this photo we can verify the LACK of a muffler cut-out on the 1907 Harley. If this 1907 bike had a cut-out (first introduced on the 1908 model), it would be located on the rear tank strap just above Walter's knee. But nothing is there. Nor do we see a cut-out rod going down to the muffler area. However, on the Chandler Auction bike, we see BOTH the cut-out lever and rod mounted on the rear strap and running down to the muffler area.

Also (altho this is a little harder to see), the fender on the 1907 photo looks rounded to me and NOT stepped. And it definitely does not extend as far forward as on the Chandler Auction bike fender which is stepped, not just gently rounded.

Recall that the 1908 model was updated with a fender of "entirely new and original design" and that the fender in 1908 now extended "12 inches" ahead of the fork.

There are other 1907 features that are harder to make out from these old images: tank size, more rounded tanks, belt-tensioner with more adjustments, etc. But the Chandler Auction bike definitely has as least 3 or 4 features (front filler spout, muffler cut-out, and stepped/extended fender) that are 1908 model year updates that would NOT be found on a 1907 Harley.

Comments?

Any other 1907 images to post?

[Earl]

My scanner isn't working all the time now, so I can't post a picture. Look in the magazine "Early Riders", Number One, dated Fall 1994. That issue did a feature article on the Chandler auction motorcycle, at the time it was owned by Gene Calidonna from California.

Pictures on page 67 of that issue confirm that the bottom of the gas tank has rounded edges.

That's another feature that was introduced in 1908.

I'll keep trying to scan, but can anyone else post that photo?

[c.o.]

Here goes fellas................