1936 el- value?

[HarleyCreation]

And don't forget the few RLEX and RLDX model small twins for Germany. One 1934 RLDX bike was built, which amazingly survives in original teak red and silver paint. It has all those letters stamped in the engine number and is fitted with a Bosch headlamp, probably from original.

In 1934 H-D offered three German 45 models: 34RX, 34RLX (high comp), 34RLDX (special high compression). These motors were stamped 34RX, 34RLX, and 34RLDX. Yes, it appears that the X identified Germany bound motors. Possibly they differed from regular R, RL, and RLD motors as well. That would fit the H-D motor/model ID system.

[HarleyCreation]

Not knowing what was going through the minds in the MoCo in 1936 could the S be for Spain? Like the XLJ models for Jakarta or the WLC for Canada?

That's a possibility. But what was the purpose of the S? To identify a Spanish contract or to mark some difference in the motor? Or both?

Did the WLC motor differ from the WLA motor? It should differ, but does it? That's an important detail in understanding the H-D model letter number system and it's weird variations.

Possible fictional scenerio:

H-D Service Dept guy goes into Joe Ryan's office:

GUY: "An overseas dealer needs parts for a 35VDS motor that he has. But I looked up that model year and we didn't make a VDS motor. What gives?"

RYAN: "Hmmm. Oh yeah, years ago we made some extra low compression motors for Spain. We stamped them VDS. Somewhere I have a note on that. We didn't include them on the layout sheet because it wasn't a regular model."

GUY: "That's confusing."

RYAN (tapping his head): "It's all stored up here, sonny. Now quit bothering me. Get back to work!"

That still doesn't explain possible 36ES stamped motors. Bruce Palmer says he's heard of two of them from 1936-37, but never saw them. I'm thinking the S has nothing to do with sidecar, but is there to identify those motors for some other reason..

[pete reeves]

The S in the model designation seems to refer more to the fact that the model had sidecar gearing not the compression ratio,This to me seems to infer that bikes with the S designation were fitted with a smaller motor sprocket.
My bike 36E2416 was supplied new to Holland with a side car. No S or H in its number.

Pete Reeves #860

[HarleyCreation]

The S in the model designation seems to refer more to the fact that the model had sidecar gearing not the compression ratio,This to me seems to infer that bikes with the S designation were fitted with a smaller motor sprocket.
My bike 36E2416 was supplied new to Holland with a side car. No S or H in its number.

Pete Reeves #860

Yes, the S in the MODEL designation on the order blank always referred to motor gearing, but that S normally did not carry over as a motor number letter. Motor letters were separate and not always equal to the order blank model letters-- esp on S sidecar models. Gearing alone was not enough to get an S stamped on a sidecar bound engine as your Dream Baby shows. That's why these reported 36ES stamped motors are so peculiar. I gotta dig deeper into my files. Seems to me I do have something on that 36ES motor.

Question: Was the WLC engine different somehow from the WLA engine? That's a really important factor in understanding Harley's occultic numbering system. Whoever knows gets the Har-Dav Prize of the week!

[JoJo357]

Answer: Don't think so Herbert. My 43' WLC was torn apart and completely rebuilt, and i didn't see any major differences between the many previously owned WLA's that i tinkered with over the years. The C in the WL designation meant only that it was slated for the Canadian Army Destination--i'm logically guessing tho'!? Oh, another thing, i can't speak for a Complete HD factory army issue, because all the WLA's and WLC's i've owned were stripped civilian models. Now..Do i qualify for the 'BooBee' Prize Herbert?--haha.
C'ya *M.A.D.*

[HarleyCreation]

Answer: Don't think so Herbert. My 43' WLC was torn apart and completely rebuilt, and i didn't see any major differences between the many previously owned WLA's that i tinkered with over the years. The C in the WL designation meant only that it was slated for the Canadian Army Destination--i'm logically guessing tho'!? Oh, another thing, i can't speak for a Complete HD factory army issue, because all the WLA's and WLC's i've owned were stripped civilian models. Now..Do i qualify for the 'BooBee' Prize Herbert?--haha.
C'ya *M.A.D.*

Thanks. So far you're in first place!

Were WLC heads and pistons standard WLA issue? Same compression ratio? Was a separate WLC parts catalogue issued? If so, a comparison with WLA engine part numbers would tell the tale.

What I'm trying to determine is whether H-D sometimes used an additional engine letter to identify special contract bikes like the WLC if it shared the same motor as the WLA. Or if the letter was also for a difference in the motor which was their normal practice when assigning an additional letter. But if WLA and WLC engines were identical, then the C was definately for the Canadian contract bike with its many chassis differences. Maybe H-D used letters in more than one way. Gotta prove it though.

[Rubone]

Herb,
All WL series used the same pistons no matter what letter designation. (Except WR but then that isn't a WL series anyway, just based on one). All compression difference was controlled by the heads. The WLA motor wasn't unique. Every part of it was the same as a pre-war WL with the exception of being spec'd with aluminum heads in a lower ratio than civilian production and a tamper proof carb. The WLC was the same spec as far as the engine and carb. I don't have a WLC parts book, but I do have an owners manual and it lists the same specs as a same year WLA.

[AFJ]

Thanks. So far you're in first place!

Were WLC heads and pistons standard WLA issue? Same compression ratio? Was a separate WLC parts catalogue issued? If so, a comparison with WLA engine part numbers would tell the tale.

What I'm trying to determine is whether H-D sometimes used an additional engine letter to identify special contract bikes like the WLC if it shared the same motor as the WLA. Or if the letter was also for a difference in the motor which was their normal practice when assigning an additional letter. But if WLA and WLC engines were identical, then the C was definately for the Canadian contract bike with its many chassis differences. Maybe H-D used letters in more than one way. Gotta prove it though.

Herb,
The specifications for the military motorcycles built for the Canadian forces in WWII to CMP (Canadian Military Pattern). Captain Tony Miller was at the H-D factory in late 1940 to work all this out with them. Hence the many curious differences between the 1940-41 WLA and the 42 WLC (some of the first of which were made late in the H-D 1941 production year).
The best evidence for "C" being a special "Canadian" stamp is that beside there being 18,000 or so WLC stamped 45s there were also 44 ELC 61s made. (under the same contract.)

AFJ

[HarleyCreation]

Adding aluminum heads and a special carb changed the 45 engine enough to put the "A" into the WLA motor number. Changing the motor meant adding a letter. Standard H-D practice. That's why there should also be some variation in the WLC motor. So far, however, nobody knows of any difference. Yet there "should" be one. Otherwise H-D would logically have used WLA stamped engines in the WLC model. Why complicate things? Unless, of course, they deviated from standard practice in the WLC and the "C" designated the model or contract and not the usual motor difference. The answer is critical to understanding Harley's entire model and motor numbering system.

The same question and answer applies to the ELC and two other H-D mystery motors: those stamped WLH and WLJ. Was the "H" and "J" added to identify some difference in those motors per standard Harley practice, or to identify special contract machines? At this point I'm keeping an open mind either way.

I found info on the 36ES stamped motor. It did exist that one year. I can post it if anyone is interesred.

[AFJ]

Herb,
The specifications for the military motorcycles built for the Canadian forces in WWII to CMP (Canadian Military Pattern). Captain Tony Miller was at the H-D factory in late 1940 to work all this out with them. Hence the many curious differences between the 1940-41 WLA and the 42 WLC (some of the first of which were made late in the H-D 1941 production year).
The best evidence for "C" being a special "Canadian" stamp is that beside there being 18,000 or so WLC stamped 45s there were also 44 ELC 61s made. (under the same contract.)

AFJ

Perhaps H-D would have a copy of the WLC/ELC contract - Can-58 - which would indicate exactly how the bikes were to be equipped. Also the "WLC Spare Parts List HD-WLC-04" might show the differences if compared with the WLA parts list. WLCs did use a 30 tooth engine sprocket and were all supplied with a 27 tooth one in case a sidecar was ever fitted. They did have the 5.0-1 compression of the 42 WLAs.
AFJ

[JoJo357]

753140a0923f2d9cc42922d8fc617051_zps765478c6.jpg Totally unbelievable, well almost--anything is possible on this planet! This all started with a post in regard to: '1936 EL--Value'? Haha **Caption reads: *Chick--KNUCK KNUCK! *Gent--WHO THERE? *Chick--Is there! *Gent--Is there Who? *Chick--Is there anybody that knows the value of a 36' Knuck Knuck?!?!

[AFJ]

Why complicate things? Unless, of course, they deviated from standard practice in the WLC and the "C" designated the model or contract and not the usual motor difference. The answer is critical to understanding Harley's entire model and motor numbering system.

The same question and answer applies to the ELC

I have notes by the Canadian Officer who gave the motorcycle mechanics course to recruits in 1942 at Camp Barriefield, near Kingston, Ontario. The "C" in WLC and ELC is referred to as meaning "Canadian".

What the H-D company might have done in the past seems to be irrelevant to this discussion of what changes in engine coding principles might have originally been intended to mean and what they came to be used for in later years.

AFJ

[Speeding Big Twin]

I ran across this thread recently and I tried to send Herb Wagner a PM but his inbox was full. I tried to email him but the address I had is no good anymore. Has anyone got an email address for Herb? If so can you please send it to me via PM. Thanks.
Eric

[Steve Slocombe]

If we are re-opening discussion then don't forget the 1950 WLH models that went to Holland, possibly a contract for the Dutch equivalent of the AAA. The 1934 RLDX models for Germany were probably shipped with no headlamp, so a Bosch unit could be fitted, and got a different serial number even though the engines would be identical to regular ones. And the 35VDS would have been going with a small special batch to the Spanish military, so the factory would have known ahead of time when the cases were being stamped. And don't we have 42 U models for the Navy with an anchor stamped in the cases? Some of the listings of models for the year also have models of which none were manufactured. In other words plans can change, as I think has been said earlier.

[kitabel]

and the answer is... H-D exceptions are almost as numerous as the "rules".
They did whatever they wanted.