Mid America Auctions Online Catalog posted... hubba hubba...

[RichO]

To Sirhr, thanks for the last upbeat post. I'll add just a few more items. I have been lucky enough to have had two 1940 EL's ( one I still retain). My latest was a CHP police model and when I got it in 2002 it still had it's left side tool box mount, 3 position coil, and a bombsite in the M-25 to compensate for the 1 and 5/16 venturi. It also had a 1941 speedometer like Todd's. The frame was also bumped to 29degrees. I knew of this machine since 1972. My frame has electric welds on several locations and is for sure a 1940 frame. I've been a metal fabricator and welder for some 45 years and I know the difference no matter what Mr. Haynes believes on the subject of when the factory started this process. My rear inline leg (front fork) was replaced with one of the rare over the counter replacement legs that has no zerk bosses on the inside cross support. I had Todd look at the date stamps on his transmission case and it's sidecover. Both are 1940. It must have been special ordered with a 1939 shiftgate, drum, and gear cluster or they ran out of the same 1940 items. It was NOT a complete assembled 1939 transmission when installed. Todd also has a nice original paint 1940 Washington police model in white with all it's original police model that still retains it's original police add on gear. I will say this, Todd rides his bikes, he wants one original paint Knuck of every year, good luck with that. Dear MR. Diesel, I didn't , blast is such a strong word, blast you but just mentioned he didn't have 35 junk basket to sale. Mr. Slientgrayfello, He's trying to get some documentation and is hot on the trail. The person who told me he had it misspoke. The original owner passed six years ago. He's on the case and as been lucky in the past. Stay tuned!!! The reason the video has Todd amped as he was frustrated by all the s___t he had to take on the BUZZZ site as you would be too! P.S. That bike was called an ' original paint' machine back in the '90's in Feld's book when it was photographed outside the H-D dealers shop were the photos were taken. They took possession of it in the early '70 so they should know as the original owner trade it in. peace, Rich

[BoschZEV]

I read through all the posts on the first 20 pages of CAIMAG.com but my eyes started glazing over so I skimmed the last 12. The buyer posted quite a bit there himself so, assuming he isn't keeping something secret (like the bike having a solid gold flywheel), it seems he has told us pretty much what he knows about this bike. I also own Greg Field's knucklehead book and I read about the green bike there.

It appears to me from the above that the complete list of what is known about this particular H-D is:

1. It sold for ~3x more than bikes of the same model in comparable condition.
2. It's green.
3. The number stamped on the engine is one that would have been used in 1940.
4. The transmission is not from 1940.
5. It appears in Greg Field's book that was published 17 years ago.

I searched for other books published by Greg Fields and during that period he was quite productive. He managed to gather the information, do whatever fact-checking he might have done, write the text, and publish roughly one new book each year. I don't know anything about him personally, but the following quote is very useful to keep in mind no matter who the writer is:

Reporters are faced with the daily choice of painstakingly researching stories or writing whatever people tell them. Both approaches pay the same.
Scot Adams, The Dilbert Principle, 1997

What should be learned from this is that, no matter what, relying on any one source when making a major purchasing decision is a mistake. To go a step further, even when relying on more than one source you have to be sure the information in each actually isn't just rewritten versions of something coming from the same root source. If it is, it only counts as one source.

Other interesting things came out of reading the Caimag.com posts. For example, several people said H-D paint of that era was amazingly uniform, and offered this as how one could determine if the paint were original or if it had been resprayed. One person said a "paint expert" assured him of this. However, this was followed by someone else who posted a photograph of the H-D paint shop showing two guys spraying fenders in less than awe-inspiring conditions.

It's always good to learn from what someone else does, especially if they paid ~$150k to do it.

[RichO]

Mr. Bosch ZEV, Maybe it got lost in my long post but #4 on your list is incorrect. The transmission case and kicker cover both have 1940 date stamps that match my date stamps on my 1940 EL exactly. Now Todd may have a 1939 gear cluster, shifting drum, and shiftgate, but his transmissinon is dated 1940.

[BoschZEV]

Mr. Bosch ZEV, Maybe it got lost in my long post but #4 on your list is incorrect. The transmission case and kicker cover both have 1940 date stamps ...

Our posts crossed on the internet so I didn't see yours until I had uploaded mine. However, I took my information on the year of the transmission from something the new owner himself posted on Caimag.com. In referring to a 2nd green 1940 that came to light since the auction:

"...this Knuckle also appears to have the... 39 trans,..."

Was the new owner aware of the 1940 date stamp before the auction?

Something else I didn't see mentioned in anything written about this particular auction (although I might have overlooked it) was whether there actually was a second bidder in the room during the auction. Do you know if this was the case? In most auctions the auctioneers are permitted to pretend they have an additional bidder on the phone or in the audience until the reserve price is met. For example, if a seller places a totally unrealistic $50k reserve on an ordinary Harley Hummer, and even if there is only one bidder in the audience but he keeps raising his paddle, the auctioneer is permitted to pretend he's competing against a second bidder until the $50k reserve is reached. Do you know if the Bonhams (or Mid-America) auction in Las Vegas was conducted according to these rules? If there actually was a second bidder when the price rose above $100k, do you know who they were?

[sirhrmechanic]

ZEV: What you are talking about with the auctioneer keeping the bids rolling in up to reserve... or with a single bidder is called "bidding the chandelier." From what I understand, it is not at all legal in the U.S. and is a good way to lose an auctioneers license. Of course, that may vary by state or locale.

Then again, I am willing to bet that it happens all the time. But if I were a bidder getting my bill racked up by an auctioneer, I would go postal.

Cheers,

Sirhr

[BoschZEV]

From what I understand, it is not at all legal in the U.S.... Of course, that may vary by state or locale.

That's why I asked. As far as I could tell with a quick Google search there isn't a Federal law that deals with this. If so it's regulated at the State level. if it is legal in certain states, it seems Nevada might be one of them.

[BoschZEV]

Further on the issue of "bidding the chandelier," the answer is, yes, this is what they do. I found the following on-line in the Mecum Collector Car Auctioneers Special Terms of Sale:

8) ... The auctioneer has the right to place a bid for consignor up to the reserve amount....

Again, I don't know if this was what was done in the bidding for the $140k green H-D, but the auction company's rules allow it. This is why I asked if it is know if there was an actual 2nd bidder in the room after the bids had left earth for the stratosphere and, if so, who it was.

[jwl]

Further on the issue of "bidding the chandelier," the answer is, yes, this is what they do. I found the following on-line in the Mecum Collector Car Auctioneers Special Terms of Sale:

8) ... The auctioneer has the right to place a bid for consignor up to the reserve amount....

Again, I don't know if this was what was done in the bidding for the $140k green H-D, but the auction company's rules allow it. This is why I asked if it is know if there was an actual 2nd bidder in the room after the bids had left earth for the stratosphere and, if so, who it was.

In my opinion, I doubt like hell that the consignor on the 40 set the reserve at $140,000. So while it is possible that the auctioneer bid on the consignor's behalf up to the reserve, I think the reserve was met way before the hammer dropped. There must have been another bidder, either in person, on the phone, or by proxy.

[BPK!!]

WOW--this I never knew:: The auctioneer has the right to place a bid for consignor up to the reserve amount.
Appreciate this insite!! Buyer beware!! And, to stay on track with this thread: Todd ride safe!!

[silentgreyfello]

There must have been another bidder, either in person, on the phone, or by proxy.

There was a bidder on the phone.

[silentgreyfello]

Mr. Bosch ZEV, Maybe it got lost in my long post but #4 on your list is incorrect. The transmission case and kicker cover both have 1940 date stamps that match my date stamps on my 1940 EL exactly. Now Todd may have a 1939 gear cluster, shifting drum, and shiftgate, but his transmissinon is dated 1940.

So, don't you think it is more reasonable that the 1940 gear cluster took a lunch, and was replaced by the only thing that the dealer had in stock, a crappy engineered 1939, and swapped out along with the shiftgate? Of course, Todd is going to say it was ordered this way, but he doesn't know any better than you or I. As for that documentation you said existed, where is it? You were stating as a fact for the whole world to see, so it must exist. Right?!!!!

[BoschZEV]

There was a bidder on the phone.

If that really was the case, then we don't know if there was an actual second bidder. This is the "industry standard" technique auctioneers use when urging on an actual bidder in the room to keep increasing their bids until the reserve is met. If the auctioneer was taking bids from the phone, there may or may not have been a live person at the other end of the line. There is no way to know unless a second person comes forward to say they had bid $135k (or whatever the previous high bid was before the hammer) or, very unlikely, the employee of the auction company who was handling the phone reveals the answer.

[silentgreyfello]

If that really was the case, then we don't know if there was an actual second bidder. This is the "industry standard" technique auctioneers use when urging on an actual bidder in the room to keep increasing their bids until the reserve is met. If the auctioneer was taking bids from the phone, there may or may not have been a live person at the other end of the line. There is no way to know unless a second person comes forward to say they had bid $135k (or whatever the previous high bid was before the hammer) or, very unlikely, the employee of the auction company who was handling the phone reveals the answer.

Oh boy, I guess I have to be more specific. There was a bidder on the phone. He was the second highest bidder. He went to 135k. The winner was there in person. Please quit trying to create something out of nothing. That is how nasty rumors get started. While I am not a fan of auctioneers, this particular one was legit.

[jwl]

I'm pretty sure it was legit too. I don't know of an auctioneer stupid enough to inject shill bids when the item is at already near twice its projected target of which I assume was somewhere in the $50-75,000 range.

[BoschZEV]

Oh boy, I guess I have to be more specific. There was a bidder on the phone. He was the second highest bidder. He went to 135k. The winner was there in person. Please quit trying to create something out of nothing. ...

I am definitely not trying to create something out of nothing. This is quite interesting, not only for the price paid, but for the reactions of people about the price, the bike, and the buyer. There were over 30 pages of posts on Caimag.com before the moderator closed the thread, with quite a few of them strong statements of unverifiable and/or unfounded opinion written as if they were facts.

Because I find these various aspects interesting I am trying to determine what is fact and what is speculation. For example, you wrote that someone on the phone bid $135k. Unless you have some way of knowing there was a real person on the phone (e.g. you actually know who he is), or you know that the actual reserve was set at a lower price (neither of which has been mentioned in earlier posts), how could you know the $135k bid came from a person rather than from the auctioneer? Even if you were in the room during the auction with your eyes glued on the person manning the phone, either way you would have seen them indicate to the auctioneer they just received a $135k bid. I am not questioning whether or not the auction was legitimate, since bidding it up to the reserve is a completely normal and accepted way these things are done.

Aside from my interest in the reactions of people to this if, say, five people bid the price of a 1940 Knucklehead up to $140k that does set a new valuation for these machines. On the other hand, if that price was set by an exuberant bidder and a bike with a high reserve, it's only an anomaly.