New 1914 Project/ Tranny ID questions...

[rustyspoke]

I just recently bought a project 1914 that is fairly complete mechanically. It has the V-Twin with the numbers 76F7xx, which ID's the engine as a 14 (I also read that based on the numbers it may have been made in Canada, not sure about that, though). The biggest puzzler I am running into (so far) is the transmission, and the kick start. The engine has no sprocket for the kicker set up that I have seen in all the original literature for 14 models. It simply has the one sprocket for the output to the clutch. On the outside of the clutch is the kicker sprocket, which I believe is the configuration for 15's and later. I bought it from Pete Pearce, who posted earlier with general ID questions, he had said it was a 3 speed. How he came to that conclusion I do not know. Here are a couple pictures... Also, the transmission does NOT have the right side sprocket, but the rear hub is the dual chain hub. I'm thinking the transmission is wrong. It has numbers on it - 9600 (with an "I" before them on the housing). Anyone have any insight?

Searching out images online I have seen Indians dated as 1914's with the kick start configuration I have, but when I downloaded the original literature (from the AMCA library - love it! Thanks!) for the models of 14, none of them had it.

Also, looking for rims, a tank and handlebars. New to the AMCA (but not Indians) anyone have advice on where to go for the parts? I still have a box of small pieces to sort through to see what else I might need. Thanks for the help! I've loved Indians since I was young and this is a dream bike for me!2011-03-22_09-43-47_447.jpg2011-03-22_09-44-00_303.jpg

[Greg H]

Hi Rustyspoke, not a clue on 14 Indians myself
but this thread may be of interest regarding parts scource

http://www.antiquemotorcycle.org/bbo...or-14-big-twin

[rustyspoke]

I've just been thinking... how did Indian convert the Hendee Specials back to a kick start? Does anyone know for sure?

Ok, searching around the internet more I found an auction site that had offered a single owner, completely original Hendee Special for sale and stated it had a 3 speed gearbox. I guess I'll just have to look more, but if anyone knows for sure what I might have on my hands, I'd love to know! Thanks!!

[wfo]

Hello Rustyspoke, Okay here goes. Your rear hub is for a single speed model. One sprocket to pedal sprocket, other sprocket to drive. All 1914 Indians came with two speed transmission. Three speed introduced in 1915. Your trans appears to be a three speed. You can adapt a 1917 kicker on to this, and make work. Or you can find a single speed setup, which bolts in to where your trans now resides. Careful on what you read. Do your homework. Get a 1914 parts book. I've never heard about your canadian numbers statement. Rims you can find in AMCA magazine. They are American made, you'll need 40 hole. Reproduced tanks are available. 1913 do differ from 1914. Good luck.

[wfo]

Allow me to clarify. All 1914 Indians came with either single speed, or two speed.

[rustyspoke]

Your trans appears to be a three speed. You can adapt a 1917 kicker on to this, and make work. Good luck.

So, if I stick with it and make the 3 speed work, any idea if the current sprocket will be correct for the ratios? Or will replacement be necessary? I've been looking at the 1914 Model book available from the AMCA and figure I have a 225 or 260 on my hands - based on the rear hub and the left foot brake pedal. Any clues on the frame that may indicate a difference? Maybe a missing speedo sprocket tells all... I'll do more homework and count some sprocket teeth. Thanks for the help so far!

Edit: I counted my spokes and the holes on each hub - front and back, I count 36 spokes and 36 holes - this would mean I need 36 hole rims, right? Not 40's.

[Tom Lovejoy]

Rusty spoke, neat project - looks more correct than mine. The parts your looking for come up on e bay pretty regular, if you can afford em. I am trying a guy in Gemany for repo parts, looks real good in the photo's. Have to wait and see what I think of them when I git them - parts I am ordering. I believe all 13 and 14 Indians had the kicker up forward and it kicked forward on a chain. I have only seen one Indian ever with the correct set up, other than in photo's. My machine has the 3 speed also, I could not afford the correct two speed. But I am hoping it well be better for actual riding, which is where my interest are.
Ziggy has the handlebars and tanks, has does the guy in Germany, I have seen a couple sell on e bay over a few years - they come up. I got a parts book from Antique mortorcycle works, their in the mag - also I would bet George Yarocki probably has a copy of it. Awesome project! I was on the Borrego run and Tom Vernon - Chuck's son was on a 14 and man that thing sounded strong - Awesome! Hope both of ours well one day sound that good, :-) Good luck with yours.

[Michael.Voice]

Well Rusty

I could be wrong, but after poring over your pics a few times and comparing what you have, with what I have and what I know of the early Powerplus, and while the engine may be a 1914, the frame and what you have of the forks looks more correct to be for a 1917 PP. I think the fenders are a bit of an after-thought thrown in to say it looks more like the earlier machine. The frame is definitely for a later three speed, hence the transmission and associated frame platform. I think in essence you have a bit of an assembly of different year parts that someone has thrown together for good measure. Still, good parts for the right machines. Don't know anything about Canadian Indians though, sounds like a good story there we would all like to learn about.

[rustyspoke]

So, I did some looking myself, and from what I saw I doubt my frame is a 17. The neck bracing is different, making for a change in gas tank shape from 16 to 17. My neck is the older, pointier style. I even have pieces of the gas tank which fit in the frame perfectly. Forks I could not discern any difference. Keep in mind someone cut off the braces that run from the neck and meet the forks at the hub, I have the pieces... I'll allow that it may be up to a 16, but aside from the tranny I can't really spot any frame differences from 14 to 15 when they introduced the 3-speed, and nothing else indicates it's not a 14, quite the opposite. I think more evidence points to it being a 1914 225. In 15 they also offered all three transmissions, so I would assume all three would fit on the same frame. What did you see that indicated 17? What are the differences (if any) between 14 and 15 or even 16 for that matter (frame and fork - wise). I'll keep researching away!! Thanks for the opinions.

Edit: I just want to add that I'm not planning a concours restoration here. I want to ride this thing - like they were intended. It would be nice to know exactly what I have on my hands but a definitive answer is probably not out there. The main thing for me is that I want whatever I buy to fit without major modification - tanks, bars, kicker, etc... So a little ID is necessary.

[wfo]

I stand corrected. Counted the spokes on my 14 Indian and 36 is correct. I believe she's got a 14 frame. Reason being lug under frame is for footboards rear mount, and swing arm stops for rear stand are different on a power plus model. I installed a power plus kicker on a 1913 two speed, and it worked fine. Yes the original forward kicker is hard to find. About sprocket gearing, you'll have to check what Indian offered. But I'm thinking you'll be okay. More concerned with your braking. The brake linkage on a single speed will get in the way of a kick starter.

[redfred84]

Hey Rusty,
From what I can gather w/o checking references, or my own heap which is located elsewhere, I agree that this is a '14. '13 was the first year of rear suspension, but had a solid casting under the seat. Yours has the '14 & up version. By '17, the 2nd year of Power Plus, they went for cable controls. Your frame still has the lugs and bracketry for monkey metal linkage. A '16 Power Plus had an extra lower rear engine plate mount, which I can't make out in your photo. A '14 2 speed would have a lug on the top frame tube, before the seat, for the cute little shifter. Yours may have busted off (I think they are only soldered on) OR...........it may be a single speed, which only had the counter sprocket in place of the tranny. These seem more common on export version. Maybe yours originally had this counter sprocket affair in place of the trans, and someone fitted a trans there afterward? I forget if there are any differences between '14 & 15 frames. There are a lot of differences between the two years of bikes, but when it comes down to the naked frame, I don't think there is much. '16 Power Plus had that extra mounting hole for the rear engine plate.
These bikes have very subtle differences between years, and models. There must be a dozen different clutch pedals for '14s alone!
You have a great start, on a very useable machine. Have fun with it. '14s are my favorite.
RF.

[Michael.Voice]

Well, I'm not saying what it definitely is, and I'm not saying what it definitely isn't either, these Indian frames, once the transmission is decided, all other parts are pretty similar. But what I can say is I have a '17 frame which you'll see on my avatar here, and it has the same ribbed front fork and the same frame as the one you have there. All the rest I regard as guesswork, and if you are going to restore it all, irrespective of the judging council and how "correct" it all is, I say go for it! My bikes are the same description, build it to ride it. Try to be correct when possible, but if you have something that fits the bill and gets it on the road, thats what you use! Look forward to seeing it running sometime in the future!

P.S. I'm probably going to 'modify' (I usually refer to it as butcher) a Harley 3 speed transmission to get my '17 Dayton on the road. Reason being, every time I hear of a Dayton 3 speed being seen somewhere, it turns out to be a fools mission with no results. Still, will hope for the 'someday' that one may turn up and not be in a Dayton at Wheels Through Time! Beautiful bike that, and magnificent collection Dale has there!

[Michael.Voice]

You're right, believe my '17 has a rib behind the neck bracing, stiffening up the whole head stock region! Sorry, missed that before. Must be the earlier version of the 3 speed.

[rustyspoke]

Thanks for all the info everybody! The age of these bikes makes guesswork nearly inpossible as to who may have done what to them over their 100 years or so of existence. I can only trace this one's story back to the early 70's, maybe late 60's. Pete Pearce (see previous postings from him asking for ID help) bought it at an estate sale, and the gentlemans daughter, who was about 35 years old said her dad had the bike for as long as she can remember. Since it's never been titled, the history stops there. Though I may get it on the road sooner, my goal is to drive it on its 100th birthday, which my wife and I arbitrarily picked as the day it came into our posession. I can't wait to ride it! That gives me 3 years, mainly to acquire (and pay for!) the parts I need, and the work I can't do myself to get done. Since I'm here in Minneapolis I will definitely be heading to Davenport this year, maybe I'll bring it along...

[Michael.Voice]

Hope the attachment works okay, because here is a pic of a 1914 with a 3 speed, so yes they had them then, maybe at the end of 1914, or the last of the 14 motors being used in bikes at the start of 1915 (surplus parts being used at later dates often causes confusion, but pretty well ALL manufacturers did it). May be a Hedstrom, but is still good for verification on transmission.