Too many priming kicks to start

[Chieftain404]

Wanted to see if anyone can shed some light on this interesting change: last summer my 441 started every morning with 4 priming kicks. This year, with no new work done on the bike, it takes a minimum of 12 priming kicks to start it in the mornings. After that it start fine all day and runs perfect. What could be making it so hard to prime when cold? Thanks in advance

[D.A.Bagin]

When I prime mine it may take 3-4 kicks choke fully closed. A little gas usually drips out when opened. Open all the way and then down 1-2 clicks. Fires right up. Make sure choke plate fully closes.

[Chieftain404]

That's exactly how mine always started before. I still see gas start to drip after 3 kicks with choke all the way closed, switch to choke down 1 or to clicks and it won't start. Only with 12 more priming kicks will it start.
Seems like the fuel isn't being drawn into the cylinders for some reason...

[duffeycycles]

Check the plug gap & strength of spark.What plugs are you running?

[T. Cotten]

Dripping gas means it is flooded, Folks!

Fumes start motors, not raw fuel.

(Raw fuel can ignite, of course, outside of the motor, and it ain't pretty.)

Closing the choke to prime is proper, but leaving it shut a couple of clicks after starting should only be useful in cold weather.

....Cotten
PS: Just for clarity,...
The M441 Linkert had an idle needle lift lever, but earlier Four 1" models were Scheblers without a lift lever, so the use of the choke detente was basically "off-on")

[Chieftain404]

defiantly not flooding, 12 primer kicks starts it right up every time on the 1st kick with the key on. Any less and nothing happens. I tried 3 primer kicks the 1st morning, 5 the next and so on until I found the magic number of 12. The Problem is, I don't want to wear out my kicker or my leg...

[Iacovos]

Had similar issue with a friend’s 64 FLH
The ignition timing needed adjustment
Also checked the float bowl of carb which was within specs
After adjusting the timing its again a 3 primer and 1 kick start

[T. Cotten]

That's exactly how mine always started before. I still see gas start to drip after 3 kicks with choke all the way closed, switch to choke down 1 or to clicks and it won't start. Only with 12 more priming kicks will it start.
Seems like the fuel isn't being drawn into the cylinders for some reason...

Please understand, Chieftain,..

Dripping raw fuel is proof of 'flooding', and excessive kicking is then required to clear the puddles for properly atomized fuel.

If all things are in order for a cold start, I would try kicking it once choked, twice choke off with full open throttle, and then with the key on, throttle cracked.

I suspect Fours might pull less volume with each kicker revolution, tiny pistons and all...

....Cotten

[KNUCK]

Dripping raw fuel sure sounds flooded to me also. The only time I ever want to see dripping fuel on a motorcycle is on my Triumph when I use the tickler!!!

[T. Cotten]

Ever hand-choke a carb with the aircleaner off, Folks?

Your palm gets wet with one kick.

Ideally,... The relief hole in the 'air inlet disc' meters how much vacuum pulls at the nozzle, hopefully preventing a flood. Thus the proper disc is probably prudent.

Multiplied prime kicks might not be such a good idea, if all things are in order.

....Cotten
PS: Technically, vacuum does not pull at the nozzle, but atmosphere pushes it from the bowl. These things are so simple.

[T. Cotten]

Since choke discs often got swapped over the decades, Folks,.. ..

How do we identify what is 'proper'?

Indian lists 102616 for 1" Models, and 102437 for 1¼" Models, and L&L probably produced the same for HD, but the HD 45" Parts Book only lists the 27225-24 choke disc, and the OHV+ later book lists that same part number for 1¼" sidevalves, plus 27225-48 for OHVs. Can anyone find the HD 1" Model part number for us?
(Thanks in advance as always...)

Not all discs were stamped, but those stamped "1" have 9/32" relief holes, and discs stamped "1¼" have 3/8" holes; Can anyone measure a 27225-48 for us? (I have one possible .272" example, stacked with common 3/16" Scheblers.)

.....Cotten

[Chieftain404]

Well Iacovos, you nailed it. Since I knew it wasn't flooding (a flooded engine wouldn't require MORE priming to start) I decided to start by checking the timing like you said and sure enough, the distributor had slipped somehow. Starts like a champ again. Its strange how an engine with the timing off would want so much extra priming to start but I'm just glad to have it resolved. Thanks to everyone for getting me back on the road!

[T. Cotten]

Well Iacovos, you nailed it. Since I knew it wasn't flooding (a flooded engine wouldn't require MORE priming to start) I decided to start by checking the timing like you said and sure enough, the distributor had slipped somehow. Starts like a champ again. Its strange how an engine with the timing off would want so much extra priming to start but I'm just glad to have it resolved. Thanks to everyone for getting me back on the road!

Good to hear, Chieftain!

Did it cure the drip?

....Cotten

[Iacovos]

Well Iacovos, you nailed it. Since I knew it wasn't flooding (a flooded engine wouldn't require MORE priming to start) I decided to start by checking the timing like you said and sure enough, the distributor had slipped somehow. Starts like a champ again. Its strange how an engine with the timing off would want so much extra priming to start but I'm just glad to have it resolved. Thanks to everyone for getting me back on the road!

That is Awesome! Good to hear Chieftain404!!

[scooterscum61]

I noticed on my bike if I forget to open the throttle all the way when priming I end up priming the carb and not the cylinders as much by not pulling enough air in to create the fumes needed and have gas dripping. CRS. has contributed to having one leg stronger than the other.