Con rod and head bolt torque settings.

[Ivor]

Does anyone know the torque settings for the head bolts and con rod end caps for a 1940 four ? It's the small con rod bolts that I don't want to over tighten and sheer off.

[Steve Slocombe]

Dear Ivor, I was told 25 pound feet on the rod cap bolts by my engine builder on a Henderson KJ. I have 5/16" diameter head studs on this I-o-e engine and was told 15 pound feet by my local old bike shop. I thought this was a bit low, as the 9/16" head bolts on the VLs get pulled down to 55-60 pound feet and a 5/16" stud has half the cross section, so ended up pulling them down to 20 pound feet, then going over again after the crush rings settled down. I'd be interested in what the Indian experts have to say.

[Ivor]

Thanks Steve, I just done the con rods at 30, and they were 5/16" (Bigger than I remember when I posted the question ) The only worry I've got there is that one of the big-ends is tight, and I'm not sure if it will just bed in ? The white metal specialists that did all the work on the crank sent the rods back to me loose but they said that they had assembled them and then taken them apart. I think the head bolts are 9/16", So I will see how 55-60 feels.

[Steve Slocombe]

Dear Ivor, correction coming, sorry. The VL head bolts are 9/16" AF but the shanks are 7/16". The calculation about cross section is still correct, in that 5/16" studs have half the cross section of 7/16" and so should take half the torque. Big ends should not be tight on assembly. Orientation is important, and the rods and caps should all be marked to help assembly. Check with the engine builder what torque was used on the cap bolts, and if it was under 30 that might solve your tightness issue.

[Ivor]

Thanks Steve, reducing to 20 didn't do it , so I polished of a few high spots and it's all good ! I feel 25 is a good torque by the sounds of it.

[PRG]

Howdy Ivor,

Do a search here and at Caimag on Four head bolt torques. The bottom line is 55 ft lbs is far to excessive, 30 is plenty on verified flat surfaces using copper gaskets. Washer land compression and head distortion is increasingly an issue on these alloy heads now in over 75 years of use.

[T. Cotten]

Howdy Ivor,

Do a search here and at Caimag on Four head bolt torques. The bottom line is 55 ft lbs is far to excessive, 30 is plenty on verified flat surfaces using copper gaskets. Washer land compression and head distortion is increasingly an issue on these alloy heads now in over 75 years of use.

I ain't goin' back to Caimag, Folks,..

But nobody's torque specs have meaning if the proper torque wrench isn't applied properly.

If you are using a 'clicker', I hope its a production line.

....Cotten

[Ivor]

Thanks for the "Heads-up" on those torque tips fellas,
But, After about 9 years and £20k on restoring this motor that was supposed to be "Restored motor" When I bought the bike, The front engine mount fell off this-afternoon !!! So bolting the heads on is not going to be a job to be done any time soon. I honestly don't know where to go from here ?

[Steve Slocombe]

Dear Ivor, you have a very desirable bike with 9 years of price inflation since you bought it, so one choice is to say 'bah humbug' and give it to Bonhams or Mecum to knock out, when you should come out whole. On the other hand, you'll miss the thrill of riding a four, and the back-and-forth camaraderie of this forum... Seasonal Greetings to all.

[exeric]

I think Steve gives very sound advice, Ivor. Give yourself a break from the project, and then go back at it with enthusiasm. 4 cylinder bikes are unique, and beautiful, and well worth doing. Don't give up on a bike you have been paying dearly for, to someone who hasn't paid your blood, sweat, and tears. I have been in your position, so I know how frustrating, and disappointing a set-back can be.

[painterdale]

I completely agree with Steve and Eric. Even though I don't have a 4, I've been following your thread on oil pump adjustment. Your dedication to the project is inspiring. I don't have a fix for your motor mount, but I'm sure someone here will have an idea. It's a bump but not too high to hurdle.

Happy Holidays to all!
Dale

[Ivor]

Well, I know this thread started as a head bolt Question, but I must thank you both for your support. I have owned over 100 bikes during the last 50years and for more than half that time I've wanted a four, but to be able to buy one, I built and sold Chiefs and 45's from basket-cases. As soon as this four landed in the UK and I realised that I'd been conned by the seller, I don't know what the most disappointing thing was ?,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Being conned, by the seller and the motor builder by telling me that the motor was 100% rebuild,,,, Or,,, The fact that if I rebuilt the motor and rode my dream bike, I would always be " looking over my shoulder " And worrying about it going 'bang' again.
So, first of all a top Indian guru in the UK, had his mate weld the cases. You would not believe what he did ??? He just gobbed/laid weld all over the outside of the cases (with them bolted together) He even buried some of the bolts that hold the cases together ! And melted the oil seals.

So, the next Indian club guy took the cases to one of the best known welders, and he told me that they would bolt the cases to a steel plate and bolt a mandrel through the main bearings to avoid distortion and then check the welds with xrays. Yes you guessed,,, They did non of the above and they came back 7 years later completely distorted with shrinkage cracks.

By recommendation from a guy that had engineering work done on his Henderson four, I approached the next people, they told me that they would lazer weld the front engine mount, and either lazer weld or mechanically fix a new 6th bearing bridge and mill both cases and splice a shim onto both cases to level them up, at a cost no more than £10k, they also said it would take 3 months and they would send me photos,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,They did none of the above and took 12 months and the bill almost doubled.
Yes, they have gone up in price, but not enough to cover the costs so far. This is a 36/7 bike with a 40 motor, and here in the UK I think most buyers are investment companies opposed to riders, so I have no idea of value ?
I have never felt like this about a motorbike before, but I don't even like looking at it or working on it ! I am so grateful to you guys not only for your teck help, but for your support and trying to show me the light at the end of the tunnen.
I hope you all have a merry Christmas and a happy new year !!
Ivor.

[exeric]

You have been through the mill, Ivor. Like you, I have also been screwed by lying sacks of sh!t that would spend more time and effort to cheat, than they could possibly justify in profit. I have always wondered why some people have larceny in their hearts, when it would be easier to just do the damn job. I can understand incompetence, ignorance, and overestimating one's own abilities; but to enter into a deal to rob someone is beyond my comprehension. Particularly in a hobby as esoteric as ours, where camaraderie, friendship, and long term personal integrity is more valuable than money. Your's is a very grim tale, Ivor and I don't know what to tell you, other than to put it aside and let it come back to you after the bad memories have softened. I have seen miraculous welding/machining jobs done on badly abused motor cases, but it does take an artist. Right now, I am restoring a 1966 Honda 450 and it has restored my love of motorcycles. I've spent years knocking myself out on expensive, busted up American bikes, so this Honda is like a gift from heaven. Maybe you need a detour away from that Indian, and find something that you can have fun with.

[Steve Slocombe]

Dear Ivor, did you get your busted engine mount fixed? I have UK contacts if you find me though the VL Heaven website.

[Ivor]

Well, thank you for that wise and meaningful reply Eric. I am going to do just exactly that. I bought a 1952 BSA A10 basket-case off evil bay, and when I got home, I discovered allot of the parts were not even off a motorbike let-a-lone an A10. Anyway, I was getting a little bored of restoring, and I decided to "Have some fun" And build something with what I can find under the bench, with NO rule book, and build it in memory of my late farther, who was a plumber. (So similar to your Honda project) I'm having so much fun with it, I'm going to pick up from where I left off last time and go back to the 4 in due coarse.