Indian motorcycle name change

[BoschZEV]

I gather your book 'The Motorcycle: Design, Art, Desire' will be available in December of this year. It's the readers that really benefit from a book, so It will be a privilege, and a pleasure to get a copy.

Thanks very much for that. We've been going through the proofs with a fine-tooth comb this week because on Friday it will go to the typesetter. The lead time is such, especially with the disruptions to the supply chain caused by covid, that it has to be to the printer early in August to be delivered to Brisbane in time for the opening on November 28. I'm not sure if the December date given on Amazon is when it will be released in general, or was just an early estimate the publisher gave Amazon for its general availability. In any case, it will be on Amazon and in bookstores in time to have one under your Christmas tree.

[exeric]

Please keep us up to date, and I'll mention that as a Christmas gift idea to my wife

[BoschZEV]

Please keep us up to date, and I'll mention that as a Christmas gift idea to my wife

Will do. But, to add some Indian content to this, we will have some seldom-seen Indians in the exhibition, including the last streamliner Burt Munro rode at Bonneville, and the beautiful pre-1910 special made for the female stunt rider C'Dora who rode it for a decade in the Globe of Death.

[ChiefTwoKicks]

I'm wondering if the Hendee Mfg. Co. really cared much about the political impact of calling their new invention "Indian", or was it more of an advertising gimmick to market their product against the competition of all the other fledging motorcycle builders ? The "machine shop on every corner" concept had to be worrisome for Hendee&Hedstrom, after a hefty investment, albeit with much fanfare and engineering prowess acknowledged universally at expositions in big cities like NY and Chicago, etc. How would the partners raise money enough to began producing significant numbers of machines to be profitable ?

The word "indian" was getting alot of attention in the papers... I assume anyone who saw an "indian", whether an actual tribal member or a motorcycle, would cause a stir. Without a doubt. The conversation would quickly become one of description and identity, these "indians" were new to everyone, and seeing one (either one)was a novel experience for most.

I remember in the early 50's, my great grandma (she lived to be 100yrs), told me the story of when she saw her first airplane, landing in a field in western Illinois. She fainted !! Imagine a similar reaction when someone first saw a motorcycle, any motorcycle, especially one with the word INDIAN painted on the tank, back around 1901. I can see it now... "I just saw an Indian", WOW ! Wouldn't that cause quite a stir? I suspect Hendee & Hedstrom (especially, the later) were trying to raise money for their fledgling new contraption. Bicycles weren't making the news much anymore, and the new "motorcycle" was beginning to get all the attention. Oscar Hedstrom was known as the "pitchman", and I speculate the partners put the name "INDIAN" on the machine to attract more attention, thus increasing their market share. It seemed to work out well. Indian sales went off the chart for close to 20 years, compared to the competition. The remaining MC builders played catch up, or closed up shop.

Its all conjecture now, history is often quite vague. WE only really "know" what we see. Even then, we can be fooled by illusions and the slight of hand. Time passes, and leaves us with an obscure tale, sometimes documented (oftentimes, embellished) for us to capture and wonder what it once was, back in the day. We, in our passionate pursuit of motorcycles suck this stuff up like a sponge. I proud of what I've learned about old bikes. Now, I get to tell the stories (I'm still just a pup, at 71). I do get a bit dismayed when someone asks me "How many 'Indians' did Harley make ? at least I can set them straight.

C2K

[T. Cotten]

I'm wondering if the Hendee Mfg. Co. really cared much about the political impact of calling their new invention "Indian", or was it more of an advertising gimmick to market their product against the competition of all the other fledging motorcycle builders ? ......

The History I was taught, C2K,...

Was that the fashion fad of the turn of the 20th Century was to glorify the "primitive".
(Like Stravinsky's 'Rite of Spring',.. etc.)

You never miss something 'til its gone.

Especially History.

....Cotten

[exeric]

C2K, I can't stress enough how informative Don Emde's book is, and how enjoyable it is to read. As for domestic competition in 1901, there was Orient, and DeDion based cycles used most exclusively for bicycle pacing, so there really wasn't any competition for motorized cycles that could be ridden on the street. Other books that are factual, and well researched are: 'At The Creation' by Herbert Wagner, and books by Stephen Wright, and Jerry Hatfield. These authors are historians who have done the tireless pursuit of research. A lot of people make stuff up to suit their own concept of history, so it's important to find the most accurate material you can.

[ryan]

A lot of people make stuff up to suit their own concept of history, so it's important to find the most accurate material you can.

Look what is going on right now with the attacks on our history and the efforts made to do cancel it. I'm sure it happened back then as well.
It was the 50th anniversary of the battle of the greasy grass when LTC Custard lost his life in 1924, maybe this had an impact on them naming the bike Indian. Talks of the Plain's Indians would have definitely been going on that year

[T. Cotten]

Look what is going on right now with the attacks on our history and the efforts made to do cancel it. I'm sure it happened back then as well.
It was the 50th anniversary of the battle of the greasy grass when LTC Custard lost his life in 1924, maybe this had an impact on them naming the bike Indian. Talks of the Plain's Indians would have definitely been going on that year

I think the 50th anniversary of Custer's demise would have been 1926, Ryan!

Which would be a generation too late to influence Hendee.

Whatever the reason Folks,.. We can be sure its 'wrong' now.

....Cotten

[ryan]

I think the 50th anniversary of Custer's demise would have been 1926, Ryan!

Which would be a generation too late to influence Hendee.

Whatever the reason Folks,.. We can be sure its 'wrong' now.

....Cotten

Yes, you are correct, Cotten, I stand corrected, darn pain or medication and the heat is just brutal here in Ohio. I couldn't even think of The Little Big Horn when I wrote that and had 1926 on my mind instead of 1923. Oh well, it sure sounded good when I wrote it.

A generation to late? I thought the name was changed to Indian in 1923?

[T. Cotten]

Yes, you are correct, Cotten, I stand corrected, darn pain or medication and the heat is just brutal here in Ohio. I couldn't even think of The Little Big Horn when I wrote that. That is pretty bad when when an engineer messes that simple math up. Lol. Oh well, it sure sounded good to me at the time when I wrote it.

No need to apologize to me, Ryan!

I understand.

Apologize to those who now are re-writing our History, over and over; As if it would do any good.

....Cotten

[RichO]

Indian

I'm surprised no one mentioned the elephant in the room. Most early Indians pre-Dupont were red in color. Just sayin'.

[KNUCK]

Bottom line is that the name of Indian motorcycle was not meant to be derogatory and nor was the name Iron redskin book. It is all in a persons negative twisted mind, and many people are infected with this new type of yet unnamed virus. I have heard that this new virus did not originate in China but in our own schools of higher education.

[BoschZEV]

In the 1950s Floyd Clymer published a series of seven volumes of a "Motor Scrapbook," consisting of reprints of early clippings from newspapers and magazines. In an undated piece printed after Hendee's death (which was in 1943) a photo shows him on a 1901 Indian and says about him "Known as the 'Big Chief' of the Indian wigwam, Hendee was in active control for many years."

I'll go out on a limb and speculate that if today the president of a, say, car company was described in a newspaper as the 'Big Chief' of the Ford wigwam, most readers would be appalled. Times change. It's hardly rewriting history to point out that some things that might have been acceptable 70 years ago aren't acceptable today.

[tfburke3]

When I was kid my dad called everyone chief if he didnt know their name.
Times do change,especially what causes some be appalled.
This thread lead me to some internet info about the use of native american indian imagery in advertising.Interesting stuff.
Tom

[ryan]

No need to apologize to me, Ryan!

I understand.

Apologize to those who now are re-writing our History, over and over; As if it would do any good.

....Cotten

I will not apologize to any of the cancel culturelist, you cannot change history because it makes you feel good, yesterday is gone! On with the future!

Indian is a great name and would represent any people well!