1952 Indian Chief

[snyder3244]

Hello. I'm looking at a 1952 Chief that the owner said had been on display the last 6 years in the American Police Motorcycle Museum in Meredith, New Hampshire. The owner claims it is a correct, matching numbers bike. I know its a long shot but I was wondering if anyone is familiar with it and could offer any insight about its history/originality. I'm not very good at judging a re stamp or aftermarket from original.

Thank You

[1950Panhead]

If you post photos we can tell if factory stamped.
Several Indians have appeared on ebay in the past two years with "matching numbers" not factory stamped

[Bills37]

I'm going to get up on my soapbox here and declare matching numbers is over-rated. Now let me explain what I mean. Matching numbers have their place, It is a mark that the main components that left the factory remain together. Does this mean that is the engine and transmission is original and untouched by mortal hands. Probably not at this point.
The truth is most of these bikes went thru a period when they were a cheap form of transportation for those who couldn't afford anything better. When something failed they did what they had to do to keep it on the road. Whether it was somebodies uncle who had a good motor out of a bike he wrecked or they did one the "dirty" repairs that we marvel at today. Few states titled them back then and even today there is no standard from one state to another. Some title the engine, some title the frame. Once you consider what many of these bikes went thru it's remarkable that there is as many around as there are. The only matching number bikes that really mean anything are the very few low mileage, 2 or 3 owner bikes that you can verify the provenance. IMO. Matching numbers is fine but it's not a deal killer for this rider.

[pisten-bully]

Does this mean that is the engine and transmission is original and untouched by mortal hands. Probably not at this point.

I would also think that a police bike would have a much greater chance of having had a motor replaced sometime in its life. I would think that maybe a bike presented as a police bike WITH matching numbers might be more likely to have had some "fiddling" done to the numbers than a civilian bike. At least you can feel comfortable that the guy selling a bike with non-matching numbers is hiding nothing when it comes to serial numbers

[exeric]

It's about time someone stood up and said that, Bills37. It's great when bikes have the correct font stamps, and all that; but I would bet that many dealers didn't have factory stamps, and used what they had when a motor case, or frame needed to be stamped. To my knowledge, dealers had the legal right to re-stamp engines, and frames for legitimate reasons. Also, when a knucklehead, or Indian lived into the 1960s during the renaissance of the new biker culture, dealers probably did a lot of legal parts swapping to make saleable motorcycles. Unfortunately, documented history rarely comes with an old motorcycle.

My primary concern with any motorcycle is that it's legal, and not stolen. If it has a good title, and is a nice bike that I would enjoy; I can overlook "incorrect" fonts. . . . Of course I would use that information to get the price down

[PRG]

Howdy chaps,

Let me qualify this observation first by saying my single deviation from matching numbers was knowingly buying a long rib replacement case 41FL at market price 6 years ago which we’ve ridden thousands of enjoyable miles since.....ironically made more enjoyable by having those stronger factory replacement under us when two friends have had their short rib originals burst, one even twice.

A few different perspectives on this topic, let’s use Eric’s: financial for which that is the least emotional tangent to view coming the closest to objectivity. The OP did not mention if this was a casually purchased rider to join a herd of 20 machines or a long time goal achieved at much sacrifice.

The market/value for our machines becomes more coldly analytical as the price increases. Let’s pick a number, say $75k as the transaction threshold once crossed for which buyers begin to depart demographically from our crew of hands on enthusiasts doing the work themselves, possibly acquainted with the seller and with first hand knowledge of the machine’s history regarded with strong sentiment. These guys might show up at an auction or have a rep bid on their behalf. The most consistent high numbers are achieved behind the scenes through professionally brokered private sales where the seller may not even know the identity of the buyer. Correspondingly his rep through due diligence may go through a checklist ticking off the boxes for which your one family owner is viewed as fodder for enhanced monetary value, not enhanced sentiment. Negotiations rarely if ever reach this far if the machine is not matching numbers or vin pad of questionable originality.

So, In that context I always regard buyer context when making a recommendation using my own experience as a backstop. Being one to have always over reached his financial situation (plight) with many purchases, closing the gap with wealthier pursuers of the same machines by ingenuity and doing all the work myself. For the extreme sacrifice I and my family made I literally could not afford to buy these higher level pieces without matching numbers as they were owed as much as these machines would bring at a minimum to show fiscal prudence or at the other end, in my demise. Correspondingly, I would have exerted the same effort and anguish....not to mention that 10 year engine rebuild debacle with the 441, whether this was a matching numbers or not, but being the former it sold sight unseen in literally 5 minutes on a casual phone call.

The problem arises when a regular Joe like me forgets they knowingly bought that high end mismatch on the cheap years prior, thumbing their nose at the need for matching numbers then, only to find after years of grinding out that restoration later that not only do buyers not surface at this level but if they do they are unwilling to pay anything close to the price of a matching number machine.

On the other hand, if one is wealthy and can afford to dabble or scratch that casual itch by adding a miss matched high end to their vast collection and don’t care about residual value I’ve told many jump on in. You can leave it casually outside your favorite watering hole at night or out in the pouring rain at your hotel on a Road Run with no concern.

Therefore, non matching numbers matters less in the sentiment bucket, matching numbers more in the financial bucket, the rules and the buyers are different with the latter. With the big stuff you gotta ask yourself from the get go am I willing to commit to either one when standing over that greasy pile you’ve long pursued.

[Steve Swan]

for those existential abstract thinkers, here's a little nonsense from me; these days matching numbers are to 'collectors' as Steve McQueen is to a grown man living out his boyhood dream or someone wanting to "keep up with the Leno's."

i'm guessing when we are talking matching numbers, we are also referring to belly numbers..

so here's my spin on matching numbers

matching numbers are cool and all that; i totally really truly do get matching numbers, especially in many of our humble cases when one's trying to extract the most money possible out of a sale or devalue a bike one's interesting in buying. fwiw, every time i ride my '27 because i am too busy smiling i have not yet thought once about its case halves being non-matching albeit both halves are '27.

i personally know a well-to-do motorcycle collector. he is not a jay leno or a steve mcqueen, but he does have a huge man cave with a 24x14 foot wet bar where he keeps his motorcycles with his ferrari's, rolls royce and fiat. he is very discriminating about what sits in his man cave and is always concerned about value even though he is turning the pristine restorations into used motorcycles.

a few years back CB750-2114, one of the two to exist of four factory pre-production 750cc transverse four cylinder units Honda engineers hand machined and hand assembled during the latter part of 1968 to very early 1969 sold on auction for a staggering (to the less informed) $148,000+ because it was valuable for too many reasons i care to list here now. the buyer bought the bike purely for "ripening" it's collector dollar value; the bike currently resides amongst other many highly collectible vehicles and is stored in a laminar air flow environment; this very wealthy highly discriminating collector makes steve mcqueen and jay leno look more like us than him.

in the case of my '27, i see both sides of the matching numbers coin. in my case to dump stupid (to me) money to build a motorbike with non-matching numbers makes zero sense to some minds and i will admit at least once in my greedy little money grubbing, quasi-penny pinching brain. i can only say that as i was bringing pieces back together to make a bike like Dad's, i more than once reflected on the 90 years what remaining original parts i was building my bike from must have gone through and also imagining what Dad's '27 went through before it perished or what it might look like if it still exists. Matching numbers and collector value were not on my mind while i was grinning alone ear-to-ear in the lowly confines of my humble shop the first time i put my foot to the kick starter pedal hearing my engine start much less shifting it into LOW gear for the first time in only god knows how many decades versus...

...having a bike sit in the sterile confines of a brightly lit laminar air flow room while sipping on expensive aged whiskey or old wine during the times a collector infrequently shows off their collection to the few people who are primarily interested in antique motorcycles for what a collectible bike is worth isn't how my passion for old bikes has ever worked for even one nanosecond of my life. the bigger the boy, the more expensive the many more toys, Eh?

[T. Cotten]

Wow Steve!

I've learned I have a "man cave"!

But only brandy for the occasion,..

Because nobody sips a good beer.

...Cotten
PS: "Laminar air flow" means a door at each end of a long building, right?

[Steve Swan]

Cotten, your definition of laminar air flow matches mine...

[Bills37]

I aging mine in an old garage. When they reach the proper patina I can claim they are "barn fresh"

[PRG]

Howdy Bill,

With the concrete floor in one section of my shop below ground level and sweating heavily I can crank out a convincingly moldy barn find in mere weeks during our humid summers.

[T. Cotten]

Howdy Bill,

With the concrete floor in one section of my shop below ground level and sweating heavily I can crank out a convincingly moldy barn find in mere weeks during our humid summers.

Useful no doubt, Peter!

Here in the Midwest, we can rely on street salt.

Just as seasonal...

...Cotten

[Bills37]

Howdy Bill,

With the concrete floor in one section of my shop below ground level and sweating heavily I can crank out a convincingly moldy barn find in mere weeks during our humid summers.

My experience has been you can't beat the ol' chicken coop for fast tracking a bike into barn fresh condition.

[KNUCK]

With the price of vintage motorcycles today if isn't matching numbers I am not interested. Now, if I am looking for a vintage bar bike driver or a certain race bike that has had various engine transplants that it is a different story. Police bikes often would change motors because they had to get it back in service, so swap the motor and go.

[Bubbalowe]

I'm going to get up on my soapbox here and declare matching numbers is over-rated. Now let me explain what I mean. Matching numbers have their place, It is a mark that the main components that left the factory remain together. Does this mean that is the engine and transmission is original and untouched by mortal hands. Probably not at this point.
The truth is most of these bikes went thru a period when they were a cheap form of transportation for those who couldn't afford anything better. When something failed they did what they had to do to keep it on the road. Whether it was somebodies uncle who had a good motor out of a bike he wrecked or they did one the "dirty" repairs that we marvel at today. Few states titled them back then and even today there is no standard from one state to another. Some title the engine, some title the frame. Once you consider what many of these bikes went thru it's remarkable that there is as many around as there are. The only matching number bikes that really mean anything are the very few low mileage, 2 or 3 owner bikes that you can verify the provenance. IMO. Matching numbers is fine but it's not a deal killer for this rider.

Just came across this post and could not agree more. It is even more rare to come across a model T with an original motor, same thing that motors used daily could never be expected to last forever. Walking away because "numbers" don't match greatly diminishes options of what's available. Worse is paying an inflated price for something that possibly isn't what's represented by stamped numbers. There are original font stamps available and that adds to the conundrum.