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the frame starts with a star and ends with a star 9 digit starts with 4A ends with He and is consistent with a 73 frame and as I stated the 6&9 are straight back.
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If you can see the vin on that frame, you better have title to the frame.
It is illegal at the state and federal level to have two, valid vin on one vehicle. The chassis in this case overrides your motor number.
If you get in a scrape somewhere and a Leo runs that chassis, how are are you going to explain why you’re riding a bike that doesn’t belong to you and that isn’t registered or insured. And why do you have 1969 plates on it belonging to different number?
go ahead and argue motor vs chassis number with the Leo and how a 69 is a 73 while your bike is rolled onto the tow truck. You might get the motor back, maybe, but the rest of the bike ain’t yours to the court.
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I have the names of both previous owners and bill of sale and paper work to match what I bought and in Florida you don't need insurance on motorcycle but it is advised and I have a legal Florida title, registration and tag for the bike.Comment
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Don't take it to Daytona bike week. It may never come back. Something is very wrong with your combination and a "legal" title doesn't mean it is legal anywhere else and will cease to be legal at the whim of law enforcement if they decide there is an issue. Also most states will require an inspection to transfer to their system so don't try to sell it out of state. Good Luck.Originally posted by silver65 View PostRobbie Knight Amca #2736Comment
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Originally posted by silver65 View Post
Ends with He? Or H3?
I think there were at least two frames for 73 Sportsters which is part of the reason I asked if the VIN was consistent with the type of frame. Is the VIN range consistent with the type of frame you have? I also asked how high the VIN was, the reason being that SB 656 indicates VINs for 73 Sportsters started higher than certain other years.
It is good the frame VIN has a star at each end and contains nine characters. But how many points on the stars? And what do the characters look like? Are they consistent with factory stamping for a 73 Sportster? We don’t need to know the entire VIN but a partial photo would help regarding the types of characters and the VIN range.
As for the SN having a straight-back 6 and 9, that is to be expected. But there is more than one style of straight-back 6/9 which is why I asked what type it is. Are your characters consistent with factory stamping? Again we don’t need to know the entire SN but a partial photo would help regarding the type of 6/9 and some of the other characters.
Same thing applies to the BNs. It’s good they begin with 769 but what do the characters look like?
EricComment
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Mark, to avoid future problems with law enforcement officers why not find a 1969 XLH frame that would have no numbers. (Part number 47014-67) If your 1973 frame has a good clear title someone might buy it. There is a remote chance they would have the matching motor.
DaveComment
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H3 and the and the belly numbers appear too be unmolested and original along with the vin with the vin matching title that was signed over to me. Thats why I bought it! As far as a no number frame have not found one but have been looking.Last edited by silver65; 05-26-2022, 08:13 AM.Comment
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What several of us are trying to tell you is that we know of people who have done some excellent restamps on cases, including belly numbers, in order to pass off a bike. Unless you have a lot of experience with SN and BN -- including all the variations of stamping and how the pad casting wore over time; it is terribly easy to get taken in. Usually it is the depth of the stamping that is the tip off on these restamps, not the stamp itself. There's a lot of excellent stamps out there now -- but unless you've done it a few times, most restamps are way too light and double strikes are terribly obvious.Originally posted by silver65 View Post
Because you appear to have such a weird combo . . .and because it's sitting in a later frame that someone didn't even bother to disguise, there's a higher than likely chance you may have one of these bikes.
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For anyone reading this and wondering why it is illegal to have two VIN on one vehicle even with bills of sale etc; there's a few reasons.
First; if you have two VIN, it means you could have two legal titles. This would allow you to insure, as well as take loans out, against both titles. It also means you can claim the bike was stolen, collect a pay out, yet still be riding the same bike and still have a title. Most folks would say "well, I wouldn't ever do that" -- however that isn't a legal defense or justification.
Second, if you have two VIN, it means you have two vehicles and should be paying registration and tax on both. Who wants to do that? Well, most states get pretty darn angry and go after folks if this is discovered.
Third, if someone, somehow, has the 1973 motor and somehow got it titled . . . the question becomes who is the "owner" of the VIN. It's clearly not the motor number person as that shouldn't have happened -- but if you have the frame and you don't have title -- you aren't the owner either. In this case, both vehicles get impounded and either returned to the last owner of record or destroyed.
If you want to get a better handle on this overall issue; look up VIN cloning.
As a few people posting on this thread know -- I just dealt with this VIN cloning nonsense. I was informed when I went to renew my license plates on a bike in my collection that I had sold the bike months before in a different state. Problem is that I had the original title and copies of two titles before that . . .and the bike was sitting in my shop. It took me six weeks to prove ownership and to get my title restored. All because someone cloned my VIN and tried to pass off another bike as mine. It almost worked . . .and had I run AV tags I likely wouldn't have discovered it for a few years. Had I gotten pulled over . . .I would have been arrested and the bike impounded because according to my state and the other -- I didn't own the bike. The person in the other state will for sure lose the bike they bought (and be out the cash) and the person who sold it to them is looking at a visit from the FBI as it was interstate and involved a tampered VIN.
Keep in mind if you buy a bike on a loan and it proves to be a screwed up VIN later -- you lose the bike AND you have to repay the loan. You can apply to victim of crime funds in your state, but you still gotta repay that loan.
In all cases the most recent VIN over rides the earlier VIN. To any LEO in the United States, the bike in question in these posts would be identified solely by the visible frame VIN, and therefore as a 1973. The motor serial number is mute regardless of the title. The title only applies to the motor in this case, not the entire bike.
Most people would say the easy solution is to destroy the 1973 frame vin. Except, that is a federal felony. The only way you can destroy a VIN is if you legally own it and surrender the title. Then, yeah, you can destroy it. Except, in most cases the numbers can be recovered . . .so the key is surrendering the title as a junked vehicle. To make it more fun, on January 1, 2022 the NMVTIS went into full effect across all 50 states. It is now impossible to wash a salvage or junk surrender off a title. And, more than 20 states will not register a junk/salvage vehicle with more adopting language to prevent rebuilt vehicles from ever hitting the road again. And -- wait for it -- the system is retroactive. When you go to sell your vehicle -- if it ever had a junk/salvage against it . . . you may find the new owner can't register it even if your copy of the VIN/title is now "clean."
In other words, stuff we used to "get away with" is being clamped down on fast and there will be a lot of angry folks in the next few years. They may have owned bikes for years . . .but the law doesn't care.
Think of it like having an abandoned home in your neighborhood. If you decide to move your furniture into that abandoned house, you don't suddenly own the house. You may own the furniture and you may be able to prove the house abandoned . . . but you still don't own the house. [granted, there are squatters laws -- but you get the idea].
That's the exact same thing here. The chassis VIN is like the abandoned house and the motor (with title) is like the furniture.
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A simple photo of the vin number and the primary side of the engine would solve all of this speculationComment
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I got the answers I was looking for to my original question and a great response and such a wonderful analogy and there should be a place on this site where everyone can post a picture of there Vin numbers wouldn't that be great.Who knows some day there might be a 69 electric start XLCH? then someone would have to add a hump.
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the answer is that I have a titled 69 XLH kick start or that what it appears to beComment
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