1966 shovelhead

[murph]

You can borrow my primary support test piece if you think it would help. I think we are probably pretty close to each other.

I did just buy an old cracked primary cover at wauseon just for this reason that I haven't cut yet so I guess I need to move that up the to do list. I do appreciate the offer and all the support. I found it best to clean up the shop and regroup for now and get my head right before I resort to gasoline and a match. The big frustration is working on this part time, work certainly interferes with my hobby. Thanks Guys I'm on it.

[Lyle Manheimer]

FIVE VOLTS, YIKES!!!!! You did not say where you were reading 5 volts. If you were on the battery terminals that battery may be no good or you may very well have a couple of problems. The first being a bad battery. So put a known good battery in the bike and start over. Make sure the connections are clean and tight, especially the frame ground. I like to use scotch brite to clean connections.
After putting a known good battery in the bike, put your meter on volts on the battery terminals. Push the start button and if the battery voltage drops to five volts, you have a high current draw. This is usually caused by a bad starter motor. The motor could be shorted internally or it could be binding mechanically. This would cause the low voltage situation causing the solenoid to rapidly click due to the low voltage.
If it is binding, sometimes you can kick it into gear and rock the bike forward. Second or third will make this easier. Then try to start the bike, if it starts you have an issue with the starter drive engagement on the clutch basket, mechanical. If this does not work, it is probably the starter motor. Unless you have a good clamp on ammeter, which I doubt, you can not check the starter current draw but the voltmeter dropping to five volts indicates high current and you have a bad starter motor.

[dukekleman]

Murphy,
You previously stated you took a good known battery and that you had the same results.
You also stated that measured voltage with the original battery while loaded was 5 VDC.
What isn't clear to me was did you do the same test on the known good battery and also get 5 VDC or just get the same rhythmic clicking sound.
If you load tested the "known good" battery in this situation and also got 5 VDC, then I would suspect a grounding issue.
Cable, terminal's, fasteners, etc...

Duke

[murph]

I did take the battery out of my 68 shovel which starts my bike, I put it in the 66 and the problem still existed. I put it back in my 68 and the bike fired right up. Now, that being said I did not take a voltage drop on my battery at the time. I ordered a brand new battery for the sake of we have no idea the age of the one were working with for the 66, It's certainly older and now we will know for sure. I do have a a clamp on meter and I'll check the amps as well. The battery connections are clean and well grounded. I'll get this primary cover cut and get a visual in there and possibly post a small video and go from there. And again I do appreceiate all the support.

[Lyle Manheimer]

I respectfully disagree with a grounded cable, terminal, fastener. With a voltage drop on a known good battery from 12 to 5 volts when the start button is pushed, to me indicates a starter problem, the resulting voltage drop causing the clicking of the solenoid. It is either mechanical, a failed starter bearing or a jammed up starter drive clutch basket. Electrically it could be shorted turns in the starter motor or a ground in the starter motor.
A grounded cable would usually create some kind of arc and certainly a situation where you "Let the smoke out".
BTW can you kick it over with the kick starter, time to ask that important question? I know it sounds stupid but we need to know all of the facts.

[murph]

To be clear I didn't check the voltage drop on the battery I took out of my 68, only the battery on the 66. All I know is when I put the battery back in the 68 after trying it on the 66, my 68 fired up. The original problem was the bendix drive and when I pulled the primary cover off is when I discovered clutch plate problems etc... In answer to your question the bike did start by kicking it prior to any of this. I cut the donor primary yesterday and a new battery will be here Monday. I'll report back hopefully with some pics or vid.

[murph]

OK.....Brand new battery, voltage reads 13v go to start it and now it drops to 10v and the rapid solenoid clicking continues. I cut down the donor primary cover and can clearly see the bendix drive engage the entire time with the solenoid rapidly moving back and forth. I tried to amp out the cable from the solenoid to the starter but its all over the map I'm guessing because the rapid movement. I also still have the starter button disconnected and out of the equation. And for the hell of it I disassembled the bendix drive again to make sure the new bendix drive wasn't causing problems, I put the old one back in and it catches the clutch hub and the rapid clicking continues with the old drive.

VID_20240729_193458116~3 by murph1068, on Flickr

[dukekleman]

Keep in mind, Volts push the Amps, if you will, through the circuit.
Have you voltage drop tested the wiring and connections involved in your starting circuit? It's very quick and easy to do...

Have you applied voltage directly from the battery to the low current post of the starter solenoid? If so, what was the result?
Solenoids have a " pull in " and "hold in" test outlined in the service manual. If you apply battery voltage directly to the low current post on the solenoid and the solenoid still flutters, then I would recommend doing the solenoid tests.

If the starting system cranks over, normal, when you apply battery voltage directly to the low current post, then go back to voltage drop testing in order pin point the actual problem.

Hope this helps,
Duke Kleman

[Lyle Manheimer]

Murph,
All good advice from Duke. Keep in mind if you jump the solenoid from the battery, clip the jumper to the battery + post and place it on the solenoid post, small post. You do not want an arc or spark near the battery, bad things can happen. If it tries to start, with out clicking you have found your problem. Somewhere between the start relay and solenoid you have high resistance, bad wire, corroded terminal. If it does not try to spin the starter motor, time to zero in on the primary start circuit, big wire. After disconnecting the battery + check all connections from the battery to the solenoid and the starter motor. If you find anything resembling a blue color that is certainly a problem.

[murph]

Ok....I'll revisit next chance I get. I did not try voltage to the low current post on the solenoid, I will and report back. Thanks for being patient.

[murph]

All right here we go....Had a buddy come over with his power probe and we narrowed it down to the solenoid. I checked all the connectors again!! I bought a new solenoid and connectors for the hell of it. Cut and recrimped with new shrink tube and shazamm!! fired right up no clicking at ALL. Was it the fresh connectors or the solenoid?? I don't care, but it was all a price paid for the education. Road tested, new clutch pack feels perfect, Starts right up. I'll ride it another day or two and send it home. Thank you to all with there support.

[Lyle Manheimer]

Good for you Murph. Unfortunately you do not know if it was a high resistance connection or a faulty solenoid. Great lesson, though, on electrical gremlins. With that being said you do not know if you have a good solenoid. Don't know how much they cost now but you might wish to save it and test it with a good battery and a couple of jumpers. My bet would be a faulty ring terminal, or corrosion in the crimp or frayed wire.

[joe fxs fxr]

Take the solenoid apart and see how it looks inside. Maybe you'll find a 'smoking gun' and know. There is a copper washer that does all the work, and it goes bad.

[dukekleman]

Murph,
You can always perform the "Pull in" and "Hold in" tests out lined for solenoids if you want to test it.
My bet and experience says it was voltage drop in the wiring. I've seen it before and does exactly what you were experiencing.

Duke

[T. Cotten]

Take the solenoid apart and see how it looks inside. Maybe you'll find a 'smoking gun' and know. There is a copper washer that does all the work, and it goes bad.

Exactly, Joe!

It only burns on one side, so I usually just dressed the cap contacts, and flipped the Copper-plated washer over.

....Cotten