NOS, OEM Panhead LEFT motor cases; Question.

[Bobber59]

It's your case so it's your opinion that matters. I guess what I'm saying is I can't see the Factory just shiping out totaly blank, unmarked cases. There would absolutly need to be a paper trail to insure that the Factory was not aiding in theft or fraud. The issuing of vehicle I D numbers has always been a very serious affair and since the left case is the only part on these machines to bear that they would have to be kept track of in some way. How could something be tracked if it is not marked or serialized in some way? I've seen quite a few of these unused replacement cases over the years and have always been sceptical of them for the reasons mentioned as well as I don't see the factory having just shipped them out and not getting testy with the dealer when the paperwork didn't come back. As for checking your numbers, My brother in law has had his local chief of police check numbers for him. I've had a local dealer do it for me.

Brian, well again I say...thank you for your concern but stranger things have occured with HD...any old timer will attest to that...my cases are legal, OEM units....again I say....take my word on it...I've done the legwork to be able to say that.

Merry Christmas Brian, and to you all....I sincerely thank you for taking the time to give me your good advice....I wouldn't disappoint any of you.

Jim

[Rubone]

Brian,
The H-D factory did indeed ship out blank cases, individually and in pairs. The old dealer I dealt with a lot in the late '60s and '70s had plenty of new blank Panhead, Knucklehead, big Flathead, 45, VL, etc cases laying around. He regularly built bikes up from from them. It was the individual states that titled the bikes, not H-D. Harley Davidson always offered replacement cases as a normal repair part and there is no indication that any documentation was used to order or sell such cases. The dealer as a representative of the parent company was expected to be honest and use the parts in an appropriate way. It was a simpler time then.
Robbie

[Bobber59]

Thanks Robbie....true enough; that's how I too understood the situation!

[Chris Haynes]

Face the facts. That number was not put on those cases by the MoCo or a dealer. They are completely bogus numbers. One LEO who knows his stuff can really ruin your day.

[Bobber59]

Face the facts. That number was not put on those cases by the MoCo or a dealer. They are completely bogus numbers. One LEO who knows his stuff can really ruin your day.

Chris....Who are you addressing?

It sure isn't me....or you are just plain wrong...them's the facts.

[Chris Haynes]

It will be you if you stamp those blank cases.

[Bobber59]

OK, Chris...I guess you feel like being a pessimist today, trying to rain on somebody's parade, WITH ALL DUE RESPECT...I guess Santa musta left coal in your stocking...I'll be fine though, don't worry about me! ;0

[bmh]

Rub, Sorry to disagree but states can only issue tittles. Here in PA the title number is different then the VIN. Some states only offer registrations,that is how it is possible for a person in PA to actually get a title for a machine that lost its own. That process is almost impossible to do here, that's why companies like Broadway exist. They do and always have taken VIN's seriously around here. Have actually known those to have what they thought was theirs taken away in scenarios like have already been mentioned. Some states only require the paper title and once you have that will let you put that number on anything reasonably close. Have seen that more than once, shovels re stamped with knuckle numbers. Some states offer special and reconstructed titles and issue a plate with a new number, some go as far as to make you obliterate any existing numbers when doing so ( ever seen a case where every digit in the serial had been drilled with a 1\4 " drill?). These are mainly used by street rod shops. Back in the day when it was simpler a lot of stuff didn't have titles. My first bike had no title and none was required by law, latest dated bill of sale proved ownership. OEM MANUFACTURERS issue vehicle identification numbers (serial numbers). They are, and have always been to the best of my knowledge, required legally to make diligent efforts to track and protect those numbers. Lawyers have been around longer than the USA itself. At best I figure any totally unmarked cases probably went "over the fence". Although unmarked 45 cases were available by the crate after WWII. I'd also be willing to wager that those old cases sitting in the parts room were in pairs, and I gotta agree with Chris that they would've had belly numbers on them. I've seen those over the years too. Some have even still had a parts tag tied to them. Of course I've also noticed a few questionable parts tags over the last few years on some fenders and stuff. I credit that to my fellow mans easy access to such things as a laser printer. You don't think that the factory wouldn't have tipped some one off if a dealer was ordering a lot of left hand cases? Someone would've guessed that the parts man was in with the bike thieves somehow. Just my thoughts, take em or leave em. For the record I will say that I never have nor will purchase any machine where I have any reservations about the authenticity of the serial and belly numbers. And surely would never admit to even having access to, let alone possession of, the equipment needed to alter them. After all these conversations are open for all to see, and they are almost eternal.


P.S. Merry Christmas to All.

[Rubone]

Brian, Where did I ever say that states issued VINs? I know that they can for rebuilt and new construction but that has never been part of this thread. I said the states issued Titles, which is exactly what you said. H-d for years listed new replacement cases in pairs, but also individually as right or left. They were not serial numbered as they did not represent a complete vehicle. Just look in your old parts books. I have seen many cases with dealer applied numbers, with both correct and incorrect font types, sizes, etc. Regretfully lots of old engines are screwed up because of this. I never suggested that anyone change any numbers, add any numbers or in any way attempt to do such. What I did say is that the parts did exist and anyone who had access to them could do as they liked. If the state they were in accepted the numbers on them depended purely on the training and experience of those issuing the titles, and motor vehicle employees tend to be on the low end of that scale. And I know that the cases that were sold as individual sides did not have line bore numbers as they were never pairs!
Robbie

[BNSONS]

There Is No Set Rules For What The Factory Did & Didn't Do. For Those That Think They Know Are Just Fooling Themselves. Long After They Stopped Making Knuckles, Pans, Flatheads Etc. And The Factory Didn't Need To Carry Replacement Cases Anymore They Sold That Stuff And Other Obsolete Parts To Dealers At Bargain Prices. People Can't Loose Sight Of The Fact That This Is A Business And Always Has Been. Everything Was For Sale From M/c Parts To Pics That People Sent In To Be Published In The Enthusiast. I Have Seen Many Unmarked Nos Cases From Jd All The Way Up To Panheads. And One Thing I Know For Certain Is Who Ever Has Or Had A Nos Case Didn't Scrap Them. They Managed To Put Them Back On The Road.
Happy New Year
Dave

[Bobber59]

There Is No Set Rules For What The Factory Did & Didn't Do. For Those That Think They Know Are Just Fooling Themselves. Long After They Stopped Making Knuckles, Pans, Flatheads Etc. And The Factory Didn't Need To Carry Replacement Cases Anymore They Sold That Stuff And Other Obsolete Parts To Dealers At Bargain Prices. People Can't Loose Sight Of The Fact That This Is A Business And Always Has Been. Everything Was For Sale From M/c Parts To Pics That People Sent In To Be Published In The Enthusiast. I Have Seen Many Unmarked Nos Cases From Jd All The Way Up To Panheads. And One Thing I Know For Certain Is Who Ever Has Or Had A Nos Case Didn't Scrap Them. They Managed To Put Them Back On The Road.
Happy New Year
Dave

Dave and RUB....I agree with both you fella's CAUSE YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE!!!! Both you fella's are spot on

Jim

[Lonnie]

First of all, I think that we can all agree that the factory did issue or otherwise provide case sets or single sides, with or without belly numbers, to dealers. And especially considering the fallout of dealers in the mid to late '70's (I know of two that went belly-up in that timeframe) it is certain that these unnumbered cases got out into the non-dealer world. Many of us, myself included, have seen these unstamped unmistakably factory-issued Big Twin cases.

Second, there are both titles without cases and cases (with non-altered factory stampings) without titles floating out there. We've all seen them. Also, there is most likely legitimate titles for cases that do not have numbers. Case in point, my first Big Twin was a panhead theft recovery that I could trace back to the original owner, which I bought from the third owner with a legitimate title but with the numbers ground off. I rode it for two years that way, never stamped it and sold it that way. So all three variations on this case/title scenario do exist.

Third, there are pieces of cases, totally unusable, that have good factory numbers on them. Case in point, several years ago a piece of a knuckle case that appeared to be about the size of 1/2 of a dollar bill that contained the complete VIN sold on Ebay. What would you think that the winner of that auction intended to do with that item, just look at it?

Fourth, there are certainly a number of the blank cases were sold by the dealer to a customer, restamped with the factory blessing with numbers that may or may not be of the correct font or size. These exist to this day without any intent of deception on anyones part.

Fifth, if someone comes into possession of a title without the cases that go with that title, that person should logically ask how that came to be and should research those circumstances. Perhaps it was a fire and the bike and cases were totally destroyed. Perhaps a previous owner ran it into the ocean and a shark ate the bike. Perhaps not. But my point is and always has been that the cases associated with that title went somewhere. I have a good friend that had a '65 pan stolen in Daytona about 20 years ago, he reported it stolen but did not have theft insurance (as was the case with many of us back then) and as a restult still holds the title. Imagine if you were to buy that title from his heirs or whoever and then stamp a set of cases, build a bike and then take it to Florida for Bike Week where the Feds make it a point to do random checks of bikes. They happen to check your bike, run the numbers and then guess what? If you are lucky they only impound the bike and charge you with possession of stolen goods! If they check the bike in detail and discover that it is a number job then you really are in deep doggie-doo!

The point I am making and what I believe Chris is saying is that all the discussion of what dealers did back in the day is not relevant to the current motorcycle registration environment - that was then and this is now. Now, the dealers, in the event of case or frame replacement, send the case or frame neck with the VIN serial # intact and complete back to the factory. The factory in turn, for the correct fee of course, sends back a case set or frame with those factory numbers. The dealers are not allowed to restamp cases or frames and cannot in fact buy an unnumbered case or frame.

The fact is, whether we personally agree with these facts or not, it is now a crime to personally stamp a set of cases, virgin NOS or not. What are the odds of any issues arising as a result? In reality, slim to none. And whether anyone out there intends to do so is strictly up to them. Just don't go advertising the fact.

[Bobber59]

Lonnie,

One prudent opinion among many. Thank you for your input. I plan to consider my options and I won't be paying any "advertising fees"...I, and I alone will know my decision when it takes place! Thanks again...ALL!

Jim