NOS, OEM Panhead LEFT motor cases; Question.

[Bobber59]

Looking for opinions from the collective experts here, please.

I have (2) NOS, OEM Panhead factory cases.

A 1950 Left case, blank VIN boss, 150-XXXX belly production numbers.

A 1962 Left case, blank VIN boss, NO belly numbers.

Yes, these are OEM, that is not in question. I have (2) Titles in hand, one a 1950 and the other a 1958. However, I did not have cases to go with these Titles (which are both in my name) UNTIL I purchased these two case halves recently.

My Question: Should I stamp these cases to match my Titles and yes, I have the proper stamps to do the job.

Pro's/Cons to doing this? This is a serious question guys, I'm hoping for your valuable input on this. I plan to keep these motors, no sale is intended, and I do have complete motorcycles (a 1950 and a 1958) so there wil be no defrauding of anybody as long as I am alive! Thanks, in advance.

[Chris Haynes]

My Question: Should I stamp these cases to match my Titles and yes, I have the proper stamps to do the job.

There are a few questions here.
Where is the case you have the title to? You don't need it popping up.
How are you going to mate a 1950 left to a 1962 right?
What are you going to say when THE MAN takes your bike because your freshly stamped serial number doesn't have the correct line bore number to go with it?
It is easier and totally legal to build the bike and let the State assign your a number.

[Bobber59]

My Question: Should I stamp these cases to match my Titles and yes, I have the proper stamps to do the job.

There are a few questions here.
Where is the case you have the title to? You don't need it popping up.
Chris, the left cases to each of my motors, the '50 & '58 are Cal Product cases with blank VIN bosses also. I'd replace the Cal Product cases with these OEM units respectively. And remember...I HAVE THE CLEAR TITLES TO THESE VIN's!

How are you going to mate a 1950 left to a 1962 right?
I think you misunderstood my statement. I have 2 LEFT CASES, a 1950 and a 1962. I have 2 motors, a 1950 and a 1958. So I'm not mating the two cases you describe.

What are you going to say when THE MAN takes your bike because your freshly stamped serial number doesn't have the correct line bore number to go with it? Chris, I assume you are referring to the production numbers stamped at the factory that "the Man" does not have access to unless he confiscates my motorcycles AND Harley Davidson provides him achival record information!

It is easier and totally legal to build the bike and let the State assign your a number.

Well, not really...I prefer to not go the route of a riveted State VIN tag on my frame. What are the real negatives for you, Chris after some of my clarifications? I appreciate your response, Chris. I knew you'd be a good challenge to my dilemna.

[Bobber59]

Chris...one thing I thought of regarding this question you raised: "What are you going to say when THE MAN takes your bike because your freshly stamped serial number doesn't have the correct line bore number to go with it"

It is my understanding that the line bore was done at the factory and production numbers (belly numbers) were stamped on each case to indicate the matched set. HOWEVER, Harley sold replacement cases to dealers, which ever side was requested by the dealer...SO, I'm assuming, MY 1962 single case half WAS NOT STAMPED with a production number because IT WAS NOT MATED, or matched, TO THE OTHER CASE HALF. This seems to bear out in the fact I own an NOS, OEM 1962 Left case half with NO PRODUCTION NUMBER!!! So there would be no achival number to "verify" by any LEO. Agree?

AND The 1950 LEFT CASE does have a production number. Here you are potentially correct. If I stamp this case half, it WILL NOT match achival production numbers to my stamped VIN.

BUT I think you did not take into consideration, BOTH CASE HALVES I HAVE (the 1950 left case and the 1962 case half with blank VIN bosses) ARE BRAND NEW, LOOK BRAND NEW so a fresh stamped VIN will NOT look out of place!

[Lonnie]

First of all, what you are undertaking is not legal. You cannot restamp cases and title them. This is considered alteration and alteration of a VIN number is a Federal offense and I am certain that no one on this forum is willing to assist you on your potential trip to the big house.

Also, though you may have the titles you have a problem, one which a friend recently went through with the end result being a bike he tried to register in his state had numbers that were registered to another bike in another state. Though his state DMV told him that neither bike had perfect numbers, the one in the other state had numbers that appeared to be better than his. Accordingly his bike, an original-appearing late-40's model, was confiscated. He did get it back, had to bond it and was issued a state-supplied number. He was, in reality, quite lucky in that he did not get charged with receiving or being in possession of stolen goods.

Additionally, unless you are absolutely positively certain that you have original titles, not duplicates or ones that were successors to duplicates, you have an issue to deal with in that an original title has precedence over a duplicate. Meaning, if someone holds an original title or successor but you are holding the bike on a duplicate title, it is his bike to claim!

Lastly, as Chris points out, those original cases went somewhere - did they end up on a bike titled via a title service? In my friend's case, that could have been the case - he will never know.

Though the bikes you now have, with their Cal Products cases, do not have the worth of bikes with H-D cases and correct titles, I would assume that they are assembled with state-issued titles or at least could be. My recommendation is to back off and live with what you have.

[Bobber59]

First of all, what you are undertaking is not legal. You cannot restamp cases and title them. This is considered alteration and alteration of a VIN number is a Federal offense and I am certain that no one on this forum is willing to assist you on your potential trip to the big house.

I'm NOT Titling them...THEY ARE ALREADY TITLED!! And I'm NOT altering cases...THEY HAVE BLANK VIN BOSSES AND I HOLD A RECEIPT FOR PURCHASE FROM A PERSON EVERYBODY HERE KNOWS! MY TITLE IS LEGAL AND THESE BIKES ARE REGISTERED IN MY STATE, BY ME!!


Also, though you may have the titles you have a problem, one which a friend recently went through with the end result being a bike he tried to register in his state had numbers that were registered to another bike in another state. Though his state DMV told him that neither bike had perfect numbers, the one in the other state had numbers that appeared to be better than his. Accordingly his bike, an original-appearing late-40's model, was confiscated. He did get it back, had to bond it and was issued a state-supplied number. He was, in reality, quite lucky in that he did not get charged with receiving or being in possession of stolen goods.

Additionally, unless you are absolutely positively certain that you have original titles, not duplicates or ones that were successors to duplicates, you have an issue to deal with in that an original title has precedence over a duplicate. Meaning, if someone holds an original title or successor but you are holding the bike on a duplicate title, it is his bike to claim! These are NOT duplicate Titles.. I HOLD THE LEGAL ORIGINAL!

Lastly, as Chris points out, those original cases went somewhere - did they end up on a bike titled via a title service? In my friend's case, that could have been the case - he will never know.

Though the bikes you now have, with their Cal Products cases, do not have the worth of bikes with H-D cases and correct titles, I would assume that they are assembled with state-issued titles or at least could be.

My recommendation is to back off and live with what you have.

BACK OFF???...please choose your words with more respect, Friend...I can hear you much better when you aren't lecturing or making assumptions about me erroneously.

[Bobber59]

Lonnie...one other thing...I have BOTH these bikes newly TITLED this past year and with a CURRENT REGISTRATION/plates from my State with these HD numbers on the Titles I hold....Wouldn't you think the State did THAT SEARCH OF ANOTHER MOTORCYCLE HOLDING THESE SAME NUMBERS when they provided me with the new State Title AND CURRENT REGISTRATION????

So what would YOU say the process SHOULD be to get these properly titled, meaning I have NO VIN on the Cal Products cases but hold NOS, OEM HD CASES WITH BILL OF SALE? Should I present the receipt/Bill of Sale for these new OEM cases and get a State issued VIN?

Lonnie? Chris?

[Paps]

Some licensed dealers can and will stamp blank boss cases, as long as you have the originals to swap, to be destroyed. Most of those licensed dealers do not have the original font stamps. You will end up with legal cases but incorrect year font. Paps

[Bobber59]

Some licensed dealers can and will stamp blank boss cases, as long as you have the originals to swap, to be destroyed. Most of those licensed dealers do not have the original font stamps. You will end up with legal cases but incorrect year font. Paps

Thanks Paps. I heard that was done in the past, wasn't aware it was still practiced. Thanks for your input.

[Chris Haynes]

Well, not really...I prefer to not go the route of a riveted State VIN tag on my frame. What are the real negatives for you, Chris after some of my clarifications? I appreciate your response, Chris. I knew you'd be a good challenge to my dilemna.

I don't know about your state. But in CA we are fighting the DMV and winning. There is a section in the vehicle code that says if a motorcycle was built without a frame number you don't need one.

I don't know why you have the idea that The Man can't check the Factory Records without first impounding your bike.
I will tell you a story about a Los Angeles Police Officer, who i will call Bill. Bill is a rugged looking guy who rides his own real old school ride. He rides to bike events and walks around sippin' a beer and looking at bikes. Only when he sees something out of line he makes a note of the VIN and licence plate. When he goes back to work at the Burgurly, Auto divison he brings up the bike on the computer. Checks the NATB and MoCo records, sends the owner a nice letter advising him to bring in the motorcycle for inspection. I am sure there are men like "Bill" in a lot of LEO jobs.

[Chris Haynes]

Chris...one thing I thought of regarding this question you raised: "What are you going to say when THE MAN takes your bike because your freshly stamped serial number doesn't have the correct line bore number to go with it"

It is my understanding that the line bore was done at the factory and production numbers (belly numbers) were stamped on each case to indicate the matched set. HOWEVER, Harley sold replacement cases to dealers, which ever side was requested by the dealer...SO, I'm assuming, MY 1962 single case half WAS NOT STAMPED with a production number because IT WAS NOT MATED, or matched, TO THE OTHER CASE HALF. This seems to bear out in the fact I own an NOS, OEM 1962 Left case half with NO PRODUCTION NUMBER!!! So there would be no achival number to "verify" by any LEO. Agree?

AND The 1950 LEFT CASE does have a production number. Here you are potentially correct. If I stamp this case half, it WILL NOT match achival production numbers to my stamped VIN.

BUT I think you did not take into consideration, BOTH CASE HALVES I HAVE (the 1950 left case and the 1962 case half with blank VIN bosses) ARE BRAND NEW, LOOK BRAND NEW so a fresh stamped VIN will NOT look out of place!

In the Panhead era every replacement case shipped to a dealer had a postcard tag attached to it. When the dealer stamped a number on a blank case that card was filled out with both the new number and the line bore number and returned to the MoCo to be entered into the records.
BTW, I know a guy making new Knuck and Pan left cases that are 100% on the money. Complete with date codes. I am quite familiar with cases and I could easily be fooled by one of his cases. Where did yours come from?

[Chris Haynes]

Originally Posted by Lonnie
First of all, what you are undertaking is not legal. You cannot restamp cases and title them. This is considered alteration and alteration of a VIN number is a Federal offense and I am certain that no one on this forum is willing to assist you on your potential trip to the big house.

I'm NOT Titling them...THEY ARE ALREADY TITLED!! And I'm NOT altering cases...THEY HAVE BLANK VIN BOSSES AND I HOLD A RECEIPT FOR PURCHASE FROM A PERSON EVERYBODY HERE KNOWS! MY TITLE IS LEGAL AND THESE BIKES ARE REGISTERED IN MY STATE, BY ME!!


Also, though you may have the titles you have a problem, one which a friend recently went through with the end result being a bike he tried to register in his state had numbers that were registered to another bike in another state. Though his state DMV told him that neither bike had perfect numbers, the one in the other state had numbers that appeared to be better than his. Accordingly his bike, an original-appearing late-40's model, was confiscated. He did get it back, had to bond it and was issued a state-supplied number. He was, in reality, quite lucky in that he did not get charged with receiving or being in possession of stolen goods.

Additionally, unless you are absolutely positively certain that you have original titles, not duplicates or ones that were successors to duplicates, you have an issue to deal with in that an original title has precedence over a duplicate. Meaning, if someone holds an original title or successor but you are holding the bike on a duplicate title, it is his bike to claim! These are NOT duplicate Titles.. I HOLD THE LEGAL ORIGINAL!

If it were mine I would simply build the engine using the new cases and take it to the DMV and register and engine change. Simple and legal.

[Bobber59]

I don't know about your state. But in CA we are fighting the DMV and winning. There is a section in the vehicle code that says if a motorcycle was built without a frame number you don't need one.

I don't know why you have the idea that The Man can't check the Factory Records without first impounding your bike.
I will tell you a story about a Los Angeles Police Officer, who i will call Bill. Bill is a rugged looking guy who rides his own real old school ride. He rides to bike events and walks around sippin' a beer and looking at bikes. Only when he sees something out of line he makes a note of the VIN and licence plate. When he goes back to work at the Burgurly, Auto divison he brings up the bike on the computer. Checks the NATB and MoCo records, sends the owner a nice letter advising him to bring in the motorcycle for inspection. I am sure there are men like "Bill" in a lot of LEO jobs.

Thanks Chris...wasn't aware it was that easy! Thanks for your input...you DO have me re-considering. But my next question would be: If the '62 NOS, OEM case DOESN"T HAVE A PRODUCTION NUMBER stamped on her belly...would you agree that it very well likely is a replacement case that never had a mated right case (no line bore at the factory, thus no stamped production number!)...now HOW could this LEO check on that???? Just curious here.

Jim

[Bobber59]

"If it were mine I would simply build the engine using the new cases and take it to the DMV and register and engine change. Simple and legal"....

I think you are correct here Chris...and being from Alaska, our DMV doesn't require an inspection for change of VIN, only for re-constructed bikes. Since my NEW case doesn't have a VIN, I would need it inspected...for sure. Thanks again Chris...you have been patient AND prudent in your advice. Much appreciated. By the way, would you respond to my question just above regarding the lack of belly numbers on my 62 case. Thanks.

Jim

[Chris Haynes]

Thanks Chris...wasn't aware it was that easy! Thanks for your input...you DO have me re-considering. But my next question would be: If the '62 NOS, OEM case DOESN"T HAVE A PRODUCTION NUMBER stamped on her belly...would you agree that it very well likely is a replacement case that never had a mated right case (no line bore at the factory, thus no stamped production number!)...now HOW could this LEO check on that???? Just curious here.

Jim

I have never seen a factory replacement case without something stampped on the bottom. I recently saw a set of flatside shovel cases with the number 66 on each side.