65 FL Timing Insanity

[JSB55]

Hi, All

Can't seem to get my 65 FL timed, so an appeal to the experts.

I've done this process 3 times with the same result, so I meet the definition of insanity.

I set up per the HD 59-69 manual. Starts easily and sounds OK, but when I bring it well up off idle and use a strobe timing light, the mark is nowhere to be found in the “hole” and its prone to stutter/miss. Carb is not yet dialed in. Maybe the timing mark is just too faint to see, and I should just static time and fine tune by ear?

Here's what I've been doing.

STEP 1 ... Timing mark centered by “bumping” the rear wheel per the manual. Pushrods confirm front jug is on compression.

STEP 2 ...Put stem into case with 2 bolt holes aligned to case holes. Put Breaker Cam on stem shaft so notches engage the weights.

QUESTION ... The breaker cam has a flat surface between the lobes and the notched part. That surface has a notch as well, about 30 degrees clockwise of the timing mark. Not noted in the manual. Does that notch serve any purpose? Mine faces toward the engine, with the timing mark facing the pushrods. Correct?

QUESTION ... The book says the base is offset such that it can only be installed one way to allow full adjustment. I've been putting mine on so that the stem studs are about equally spaced in the slots on both sides of the base when the cam mark and the breaker arm fiber are aligned. That puts the Condenser on the forward side, and the timing mark on the base is pointed outward from the engine, as per the book. Correct ? (my stem has no visible mark, which the book says to align with the mark on the base)

QUESTION ... When all done per the book (I think), to do final alignment of timing mark with the breaker lever fiber I have to turn the base full clockwise (i.e., what would be fully retarded on a manual advance timer) to align the cam mark with the fiber while holding the cam at full advance. Is that correct, or is something off?

I've tried backing off a tooth per the manual, but the breaker cam moves so far counterclockwise that I'm way off when putting the base back on. Maybe I'm just being heavy handed.
How much should the breaker cam move when I turn the stem shaft enough to move one tooth on the gear?

Or should I forget the initial alignment of timing mark with fiber, and just go for alignment with the breaker cam held at full advance (i.e. timing) and try to get the studs in the middle of the slots so I have lots of room to advance or retard when fine tuning by ear ?

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I have a 65 FLH with an aftermarket 66-69 style timer, and that aligns much differently, but is a piece of cake to time, both static and confirmed by strobe timing light or by ear. Ditto for the manual advance timer I have on another bike. Both are easy peazy.

This OEM 65 for the FL is driving me nuts!

I must be doing something wrong ... but what ???

Thanks for any and all help!

John

[Lyle Manheimer]

I have read your insanity post a few times. The only thing popping into my mind is the after market auto timer advace mech is not functioning properly. I also like using a seperate 12volt battery for my power supply to the strobe light. Mostly due to a lot of my stuff is 6 volt but I still like to do that because alternators sometimes do not supply clean voltage to the battery, I read that somewhere. In your case you are dealing with a generator so that should not be a problem.

[duffeycycles]

Manual advance timers are set at full advance & retarded for starting, auto advance timers change timing position as you rev the motor reaching full advance at some point above idle. The timing mark moves with the advancing engine. I agree with Lyle the aftermarket timers do not rev or return like an OEM timer. Years ago a guy named George had 3 '65s in judging at Davenport, one had a Tedd Cycle timer. I asked him if that bike ran like crap. He was suprised that I could tell without hearing them run. He said it did run like crap & the best mechanic in Texas [or whatever state] couldn't figure it out...it was the timer. There are aftermarket timers that don't look anything like original that work fine [but not the Tedd Cycle/VTwin POS timers] Contact Jeff's American Classics for an original...or search for Vulcan or Mallory for an aftermarket timer that revs nice.

[JSB55]

Thanks for the input, guys. The aftermarket timer I referred to is on a different bike, and works just fine. And yup, I avoid Tedd''s like the plague if I possibly can.

The timer I'm asking about is a 65 OEM Auto Advance that bolts to the case with 2 bolts on the stem like a manual. and best I can tell, the only replacement parts in it are the points and condenser. Pretty sure that timer was a one year only item, until they changed to the 66-69 style which is much easier to time.

Unless somebody who knows that specific OEM 65 timer has a better suggestion, I'm going to assume I'm one tooth off on the gear when inserting into the case, and try adjusting that once more.

After that, my default is going to have to be static time it and fine tune by ear, and assume my timing mark is just too faint to show up under a strobe timing light.

[duffeycycles]

Tedd Cycle is a great company in my opinion after being a dealer for 28 years. Their auto timers suck !...... Test for intake leaks & tune the carb, your point that the mark moves as it revs tells me you are not an experienced tuner.

[JSB55]

Just to clarify ... I didn't mean to suggest the mark moves around; I wasn't seeing it at all with a timing light. Clearly visible with the plug out, but not so much with the clear plug in there, so that's likely the issue.

[T. Cotten]

Just to clarify ... I didn't mean to suggest the mark moves around; I wasn't seeing it at all with a timing light. Clearly visible with the plug out, but not so much with the clear plug in there, so that's likely the issue.

Yeah, ditch the plug, John!

They have to be dangerously close to the wheels to work at all;

Block the machine upright before you start it, and wait a bit before you remove the plug, and it won't spray so much.

And avoid covering the timing hole with a rag while its running.

....Cotten

[T. Cotten]

Meanwhile, John,

Both of my '65s had diabolical timer issues: Beware the points cap is quite malleable, and overtightened studs over its lifetime distort things and often must be straightened and dressed for an accurate adjustment.

Another diabolical issue was only diagnosed upon a SUN distributor analyzer as bouncing points, producing phantom firing points almost randomly. Please avoid points design like this:

BADPOINT.jpg

The SUN machine showed the advance to be almost instantaneous.

....Cotten

[JSB55]

Ah, Cotten. The voice of experience! That clear plug works great on my FLH with T&O flywheels, but not in this all original (but expertly rebuilt) FL.

I can probably get it by ear, or try the test light method. My points don't look like either of those. Not sure the origin of mine, but they look like a repop of originals, with one hole for the lock screw, and one for the eccentric. Thanks!

[jgbrown59]

One simple suggestion to help see the timing mark (once you resolve your other problems) - get the mark in the hole, clean it well then paint it to increase its visibility. I've used red, white, and neon orange and they all worked well.

Jim