Recognize a 1949 Panhead with a Springer fork

[eongaro75]

Hi guys, First of all, thank you for the support you can offer me

I need your help identifying this 1949 Panhead. The engine number indicates a ’49 Year, but it actually has a Springer fork installed
The gearbox is marked K8, and the heads are also stamped 48 – K8, but the engine number is a 49E…..
The engine number 8124 seems too high to be an early series (though I might be wrong), and I haven't found any “P” to understand whether it was originally a sidecar.

The frame has the horn mounts, in the frame and shows XE-35F number 17.

My question is: could this be one of the Panhead produced using leftover parts from the factory?
Or was the Springer fork added later over the years?
Are there other ways to figure out if this ’49 Panhead came from the factory with a Springer front end?

Kind regards
Enry

[Rubone]

Hello Enry. The sales order forms for '49 show the first order form dated 9-1-49 with the option of ordering the Spring Fork. The second one dated 10-15-49 has that option removed. However, being that your engine is a "E" model, which were almost exclusively for sidecar use, and also if it was an export model I would guess that it was delivered with that fork originally. The low compression 61" engine was not popular in the USA and is rarely seen however was used for export due to the poor gasoline available in the European countries back then. The high serial number for that model also points to a special order most likely for export.
What gearbox is in it?
What engine sprocket does it have?
Ciao,
Robbie

[eongaro75]

Thank you very much, Robbie, you’ve been very kind.

The transmission is a 4-speed.
If I remember correctly, the sidecar models had a 3-speed with reverse.
The sprocket, if I counted correctly, should be 22/23 teeth, and I can confirm that the engine is a 1000cc.

So based on your information, this could be a bike that actually left the factory with this configuration.
My fear is that it may have been put together using parts from other motorcycles.
Prices here have gone through the roof — the owner wants $57,000, and I’m not sure the bike is truly AMCA 100-point quality.

Ciao
Enry

[droptopford]

Can't see much in that postage-stamp size pic of the bike Enry (VIN pic is great) but from what is visible, it looks good. A 'P' would make things easier of course, but it's not a requirement to prove factory Springer.

[eongaro75]

Thank you very much for your reply.
I have attached a link to a video that might help you recognize the motorcycle better...

What do you think? There is no P present.

[Speeding Big Twin]

Here's a photo of the bike from the Classic Panhead (CP) page on Facebook (FB) a while ago.






Also on FB was a photo of the serial number (SN) and it was a bit larger than the photo you posted. I couldn’t see anything wrong with the characters and they appeared consistent with factory stamping.

I don’t know if you have a photo of the belly numbers (BNs) but I do although I covered the last three characters as you can see. Also as you can see there is no crankcase guard. Sometimes an owner removes the guard to take a photo of the BNs but on this occasion the front mounting bolts are in place so please ask the seller if he has the guard.






You mentioned the heads are marked 48 and K8. In full the front head may have casting number 119 48 while the rear head may have casting number 119 482.
There is still some confusion regarding what happened with the letter I in date codes for H-D aluminium parts cast in 1948–49 but on front and rear Panhead heads I have examples of it which suggest date code I8 was indeed used on those pieces to indicate casting in Sept 48. Therefore at this stage on Panhead heads I’d say K8 indicates casting in Nov 48.

You also mentioned the gearbox is marked with K and 8 but did you mean underneath? Or did you mean K and 8 are on the starter cover (kickstarter cover)? Or are K and 8 on both those parts? K and 8 were in the date code for aluminium parts cast in 1948 as well as 1938. Can you post a close-up of the code(s) please.

I’d also like to see a close-up of the left side of each cylinder. And are there any markings at the base of the cylinders?

Regarding the frame, forging number XE-35F along with forging die number 17 may be consistent with a 49 model. Does the steering head also have forging hallmark DIF?
What markings are on the axle clips?

As for the letter P, it seems to have been stamped at the end of the SN on some, not all, 49 Pans which were originally springer-equipped. I have no model layout sheets for 1949 but apparently there were at least two and one of them includes mention of the P at the end of the SN.

But was P on the frame for any of those 49s? On the CAImag forum in 2016 there was a discussion about a 49 Pan with a springer that was apparently original to the bike. The owner said the SN had no P although P was on the frame where the foot brake lever bracket is attached. But he posted no photo of the P and even if he had done so there was nothing to compare it with. And I have no evidence that a P on a 49 Pan frame indicated springer. Also, and as I said at that time, we often see letters and/or symbols stamped in that position as well as on the corresponding area on the left side and my best guess is that they were done by an inspector. Therefore it wouldn’t make sense for H-D to stamp P in either of those positions to indicate springer. And I imagine the type of front end for each bike was recorded on the build sheet anyway.

One story about an alleged P on a 49 Pan frame began in July 2008 on the original Harley Tech Talk forum. A certain person said he and a few others knew its location but that he wouldn’t disclose it. The inference was that he’d seen at least one 49 frame P but later on another site he said he’d never seen it, although according to him it was rumoured to be stamped in one of the positions I mentioned above. Later still he said he’d seen it in both positions, meaning he’d seen the P on at least two 49 Pan frames. On another occasion he said he’d seen P on the frame of original 49 springer bikes. I asked him for factory evidence but he had nothing.

Was P ever really stamped in either of the abovementioned positions? Yes, apparently, but the two I’ve seen are not on 49s. One frame I have photos of has P where the foot brake lever bracket goes but it was made in Nov 63 for a Duo-Glide. The other frame I have pictures of has P on the left side but it was made in Nov 56. Again my best guess is that these markings were done by an inspector.

Another person years ago claimed the frame P was stamped on one of the mounts which accommodated the rear stud for a footboard. But I saw no evidence.

Page 917 of Palmer’s 37–64 SE says P is stamped into the frame in a non-visible area. But I don’t see any proof in that book.
Eric

[eongaro75]

Thank you Eric, you have been very kind and thorough. I can confirm that the heads have the codes you indicated (I have attached the photos) and I can confirm that K8 is present under the gearbox and in the starter cover, although it is not very clear in the photos.

I have requested photos of the cylinders. Let's see if the owner sends them to me because the motorcycle is 500 miles from where I live.
I checked the frame numbers against the table in the Palmer book, and they are correct. They indicate that it is from 1949, but I did not find any P.
I read Palmer on page 917, but even here the information varies greatly, and as you say, no one has ever clearly written where this letter P might be located.

In your experience, could an engine number as high as 8124 have been produced with a springer fork?
If K8 indicates November 1948, could the engine have been produced in November?

Thanks for helping me identify this bike. If I can get more photos, I'll share them on the forum.

Thanks a lot
Enry

[JoJo357]

A little bit on the pri$ey side, but that's one Super nice '49 Pan Enry. *Shoot tHe Sh_T Question: If authentic, would a 1949 springer export be more desirable than a 1948 Panhead?
Great Luck with the sale Enry.


*M.A.D.*