My first panhead

[Speeding Big Twin]

I am finding some of these frame casting numbers but it sounds like they can't nail down a production year

Looks like the upper rear forging number is formatted as per the first example I mentioned: 476 45 58. And the same number may be on the outside of the other forging. That seems to have been the early style, having spaces between certain characters and no hyphen/dash. Therefore it helps suggest that your frame date code indicates Sept 57 as opposed to Sept 67.
Here’s the other style for comparison. Also notice the 6 is different.







R-H axle clip has the usual forging number. Also the usual forging hallmark which appears to be the letter Q with WF inside it but I don’t know what company it represents. Above the hallmark there is a forging die number but I can’t read it. Could it be 32 (upside down)?

Can you post a photo of the left axle clip please.

On top of Panhead crankcases H-D used at least two types of 7: seriffed; and sans serif. Seriffed is the only type I’ve seen so far for 1948 Panheads. For 1949 some Pans had a seriffed 7 while others had a sans serif 7 and the same thing happened with Pans for 1950 but at some point during the 1950 model year the sans serif 7 seems to have taken over completely.
Your 7 is seriffed and it has the type of back I’d expect. Therefore it suggests your R-H case is 48, 49 or 50.
And if your R-H case is 48, 49 or 50 then I imagine it does not have the cap demonstrated below? (It’s for an oil screen etc and it was introduced about mid/later-52.)
Eric

[echambers]

Eric thank you for some great information your knowledge about these things is amazing! The number on the right hand axle clip you are referring to is a inverted 32 as you suggested. The gear case looks as you described and I'm pretty sure the gear case cover not 50's era either. If I am learning anything from Palmer 66 to 69?. Thank you for your interest in this project. Ed.

[Speeding Big Twin]

You're welcome. Thanks for confirming the die number on the R-H axle clip is 32. That die number helps suggest the swingarm is approximately a 1965 model.
H7 on the left axle clip is a run number and it too helps suggest approximately a 65 model.
Inside the left clip you may find forging number 47614-58A which first appeared for 1963 models. And forging hallmark A which indicates the left clip was manufactured by AmForge, Chicago. There may also be a forging die number which may be approximately 8. Here’s an example.







Because your R-H case has no provision for a tappet oil screen the case is early-52 or earlier. And it’s likely to be a 48, 49 or 50 model because of the seriffed 7, as I mentioned above.
The oil screen was demonstrated in Shop Dope 330.





Your gear cover may be one of the 1940s types? In Palmer’s 37–64 second edition he mentions a long oil passage and a circle below the ribs. Yours appears to have the long oil passage and a circle but someone may have removed the ribs.

I’m not sure if your oil pump is H-D or AM? If H-D it’s 68 or later.

I’ve seen a brake pedal like yours before but I think it may be AM, judging by those raised circular pieces on top. Overall it’s similar to a type H-D introduced for 1970 E-Glides and I put the genuine type on my 99 FXST many years ago after I collided with a car and my original pedal got badly bent.

Master cylinder may be AM? Normally a Harley rear master cylinder of that style has Wagner Lockheed on the side.

Getting back to the 7 on your R-H case, in some books Palmer says the 7s are 1/2” tall but I disagree. On top of rear mounts I’ve seen hundreds of 7s, some seriffed and some sans serif, but none are 1/2” tall so I don’t know why Palmer says they are.
Eric

[echambers]

Thanks for all the hard work. It's obvious you guys love what you do, that's great! Have been reaching out to previous owner but without documentation anything he can add will just be another part of the story. I expect I will just have to go to the BMV and try to explain the situation and maybe end up with a old Johnny Cash panhead with a 2025 title. All comments are appreciated I will post the plan when I have one.

[HD48FL]

Do you have any paperwork (title, registration, or bill of sale) that matches the VIN on the actual motorcycle?

I would simply go to your BMV and ask them to do a VIN verification for a motorcycle you purchased, assuming you don't have a title or anything that matches the VIN on the bike. Since the bike has a VIN, they can likely can figure it out and issue a title based on what's there. I still don't understand why you're wanting to title it as something else, if it has a VIN, run with it and let them figure it out. It's not wise to remove a VIN, so that's why I'm saying get to the bottom of what you have.

[echambers]

HD48FL That is what I plan to do get to the bottom of what I have I was told it was a 58 but as this plays out not finding many 58 parts on it and I don't want to and am not trying to or going to represent it for something it is not also do not plan to remove or change the VIN that I do have. As you mentioned my plans are to go to the BMV explain the situation and see what light they can throw on this.

[HD48FL]

Can't be a '58 unless you have the OEM left case with an unaltered VIN, doesn't matter about the rest of the bike. 1969 and earlier HD's are titled by VIN on left case, 1970 and later HD's are titled by VIN on frame. Let the BMV get to the bottom of the VIN on the bike, there must have been a title/registration out there at some point, otherwise no one would have put a VIN on the frame for example.

The person you bought this from, do they have anything that documents the VIN number which is on the bike? Does he know anything of how the VIN on that bike got there?

In my opinion, it's risky buying a bike without a title/registration. I'm assuming you have a bill of sale, that should document that VIN number, meaning you bought a motorcycle with that VIN number, etc. That's why I asked earlier to show the VIN, or at least a partial pic. If it's a state assigned VIN, as you mentioned it wasn't HD, sometimes there are indicators as to what state it might be, etc.

Yes, we're all trying to help you, but there are also some things that you have to be careful with, hence why we're trying to help you.

[FNG1]

Now I'm confused, "unless you have the OEM left case with an unaltered VIN"? If I grenade my motor and buy a replacement case. Use their service or I stamp my numbers into it. As far as a legal title goes I thought Its a whatever it was before it blew up. I'm not talking about any Club judging (those rules are clear). Just a legal title for a nice bike. A rider. I would definitely keep my receipts and paper work so the next owner would know what was what. If I'm wrong, what are the remedies for an accident, poor maintenance, or abuse that destroys the vin side case.

[HD48FL]

If the original case needed repair, an authorized shop could stamp the OEM case, see post 63 in this thread: https://www.hydra-glide.net/phpBB3/v...p=67409#p67409

If you grenade an OEM left case and buy an aftermarket left case, I do not know if that can be re-stamped with a Harley VIN, hopefully someone chimes in with the legalities of that situation. But either way, I do not think an owner can stamp the numbers.

It appears he doesn't have the original case and didn't get a title for it either, it appears that's been long in the past. The problem in this situation is that he has a VIN on the frame and I believe he said somewhere else (motor). Once another VIN was introduced, it supersedes the previous VIN/title. It appears that someone changed the left case on this bike at some point and needed a VIN, what they stamped into the frame and who stamped it is a mystery. But since it has a VIN, that is what he should be pursuing.

[echambers]

I have found a small trail of bread crumbs, small but a trail just the same. I will follow it as far as I can this week and share where it leads. Don't want to seem childish or secretive. But I see no point in putting it out there yet because it may not be anything. Thanks to all for your continued interest in this. I have learned a lot from this conversation I hope others have as well.

[HD48FL]

I wish you the best of luck, you seem swayed to title this as a '58 and you are clearly missing the important thing, it appears you bought a bike with no title, yet it has a VIN. Not sure of your plans, but you can't remove a VIN, so that's why I say go to the BMV and apply for a title based on your Bill of Sale. This way they can figure out the VIN on the bike, it's not like you can hide that.

[echambers]

I wish you the best of luck, you seem swayed to title this as a '58 and you are clearly missing the important thing, it appears you bought a bike with no title, yet it has a VIN. Not sure of your plans, but you can't remove a VIN, so that's why I say go to the BMV and apply for a title based on your Bill of Sale. This way they can figure out the VIN on the bike, it's not like you can hide that.

I am not trying to hide anything I appreciate your advice and concerns but as I mentioned earlier chances of titling it as a 58 are slim to none I am aware of that. I also have no plans of removing or altering the VIN I currently have. I went into this deal eyes wide Open knew what I was getting into and I'm working to resolve this in a honest and legal way. Once again as mentioned in past post I will be working with the BMV to get this straightened out. Am I missing something? No! I am going through the BMV with whatever process they recommend as mentioned very early in this thread. Thanks.

[HD48FL]

Then why mention that you "found a small trail of breadcrumbs"? Good luck, keep us posted, at the end of the day, getting a title/registration means you get on the road, it's a bitsa bike and meant to be a rider. Title however the BMV tells you based on the existing VIN and ride the hell out of it.