My first panhead

[echambers]

I really do appreciate everyone's concerns I understand the importance of a VIN number and am pretty confident that it won't be a problem. I am totally overwhelmed by the response this has Got greatly appreciate all the insite and information. I am picking up more information than I ever imagined it's been great thank you all! Funny thing is the more that I learn from you all and the deeper I look into things the more battle scars I find. If these things could talk!

[echambers]

Welcome to the forum.

Frame looks like the type used for 58–64. Originally they had no frame number but on the steering head you may find a forging number and a forging die number which may help with model year.
Stamped on the R-H side of the frame top engine mount you may find a date code indicating the month and year it was made.
Stamped on the left side of the steering head you may or may not find an additional original component identifying number, aka security code, aka anti-theft number, consisting of one letter followed by either three or four numbers but they may be hard to see because they are only about 1/8” tall.

Regarding the cases, I agree the left one is alternator style but is the case Harley or AM? I do not know yet.
H-D Shovel alternator cases for the first couple of years had a number boss although originally it was unstamped. I can’t tell much from the photos. Does the left case have a number boss?

On alternator Shovels the VIN shifted from the R-H case to the left case during the 1983 model year but there was no number boss. Usually the engine VIN consisted of four letters followed by six numbers and overall it was an abbreviated version of the 17-character VIN on the frame.

Does the left case have a crankcase production number? And if so are there any other markings nearby? Or any markings at the back of the case or on top of it near the rear mounting bolt?

Also you mentioned 58 a couple of times. You said the person you got the bike from had a clean title but lost it. Did he say the title said 58? Thanks.
Eric

I'm not able to see any numbers on the left side crank cover. Yes the person I got the bike from did say it was titled as a 58. LOL as much of a mix and match this seems to be it's like I mentioned in the earlier post about the Johnny Cash song I could probably title it as a 51 52 53 ect.

[droptopford]

"But up there at the courthouse, they didn't laugh because to type it up it took the whole staff and when they got through, the title weighed sixty pounds!"

[dukekleman]

It is now apparent that the neck of the frame has been worked on as well as the top fuel tank/dash mount casting.

Like you said, if they could only talk, the stories they'd tell!

Duke

[echambers]

Well I may be crazy or I may be a fool or maybe a crazy fool. But I've got her up on the jack taking a few small pieces off going to start getting the paperwork together for the court ordered title this week. Think I'll go for the 58 there has to be a 58 piece in there somewhere. We will see how this story plays out.

[HD48FL]

A '58 Harley can only be titled by the factory VIN on the left case. You do not have the original left case, trying to title it as such would be a mis-representation and fraudulent. That is why I asked what kind of VIN it was if it wasn't a Harley number. Sounds like someone had a VIN and title and just stamped in that number. Maybe I missed it, but do you have any paperwork (title or registration) that shows ownership with the VIN number that is on the bike?

[Speeding Big Twin]

Ed, thanks for the latest photos. Regarding the frame date code, the straight line you mentioned may not be an L but instead it may be the letter I and here’s another example of it.







It’s likely your date code indicates the frame was made in Sept 57 and it may have been used for a 58 model so maybe that’s part of the reason the bike was titled as a 58, although obviously it would have required a factory-stamped 58 left case as well.

But it’s also possible your frame was made in Sept 67 as a replacement. If it was made in Sept 67 then originally it may have had an additional original component identifying number stamped on the left side of the steering head but obviously we’ll never know now because the line of vertical weld on your steering head is where the additional ID number would have been. Also I don’t see any forging ID on that side of your steering head and I imagine there’s no forging ID on the R-H side either so we have no forging number or forging die number to help us.

Think I'll go for the 58 there has to be a 58 piece in there somewhere.

Lower left rear forging may have 47653-58 but it was used for 1958 models through about early-70 models.
Lower R-H rear forging may have 47651-58 but it was used for 1958 models through early-73 models.

Both upper rear forgings may have a number ending in 58 but it was used for 1958 models through 1964 models and the same number was also present on forgings for replacement frames of that type. However there may be a clue regarding the way that forging number was applied because sometimes it was upside down while at other times it was the right way up. And it was formatted in at least two different ways: 476 45 58; and 47645-58. Also there were at least two types of 6 used. You may be able to see one of those forging numbers on the inside of the forging? Photo?

Swingarm looks like it has reinforcement ribs on the left axle clip? If so they indicate 1963 or later. Some forging ID may also be visible?
Outside the R-H axle clip you may find forging number 47606-58 but it was used for 1958 models through 1972 models. Other forging ID may also be present?

Regarding the cases, it sounds like the crankcase production number on the R-H case may have fallen victim to a welding repair? Or did you find it? But even if you did, it won’t necessarily help indicate what model year the engine originally was unless you know the complete history of the bike.

You’re not able to see any numbers on the left side crank cover?
Do you mean you can’t see a crankcase production number? Here’s where to look.






Is anything stamped on top of the left case near the rear mounting bolt? Maybe the letter H or the number 7? Or nothing?

Regarding the outer primary cover, looks like it may accommodate nine screws as opposed to eight? I think they went from eight to nine as of 1983 models?
Eric

[echambers]

A '58 Harley can only be titled by the factory VIN on the left case. You do not have the original left case, trying to title it as such would be a mis-representation and fraudulent. That is why I asked what kind of VIN it was if it wasn't a Harley number. Sounds like someone had a VIN and title and just stamped in that number. Maybe I missed it, but do you have any paperwork (title or registration) that shows ownership with the VIN number that is on the bike?

You are correct please accept my apologies. Legal illegal or indifferent it would not be morally correct. I will not proceed with the title process until I we can come up with an acceptable year. I am finding some of these frame casting numbers but it sounds like they can't nail down a production year I'm still looking for that right case belly number in hopes that it may shed some light looking like I may have to start taking things apart to be able to find it if it's even still there. Thanks again for all the support I can see how dedicated and passionate you all are to this. Sorry for my misstep. Ed.C

[HD48FL]

No need to apologize, we all want you to enjoy the motorcycle you have.

If the frame and I believe you said somewhere that VIN was also stamped into the case somewhere, just use that VIN, no reason to reinvent a VIN.

Is there any history as to who stamped the current VIN? Is there any previous title or registration with that VIN?

[echambers]

Ed, thanks for the latest photos. Regarding the frame date code, the straight line you mentioned may not be an L but instead it may be the letter I and here’s another example of it.







It’s likely your date code indicates the frame was made in Sept 57 and it may have been used for a 58 model so maybe that’s part of the reason the bike was titled as a 58, although obviously it would have required a factory-stamped 58 left case as well.

But it’s also possible your frame was made in Sept 67 as a replacement. If it was made in Sept 67 then originally it may have had an additional original component identifying number stamped on the left side of the steering head but obviously we’ll never know now because the line of vertical weld on your steering head is where the additional ID number would have been. Also I don’t see any forging ID on that side of your steering head and I imagine there’s no forging ID on the R-H side either so we have no forging number or forging die number to help us.




Lower left rear forging may have 47653-58 but it was used for 1958 models through about early-70 models.
Lower R-H rear forging may have 47651-58 but it was used for 1958 models through early-73 models.

Both upper rear forgings may have a number ending in 58 but it was used for 1958 models through 1964 models and the same number was also present on forgings for replacement frames of that type. However there may be a clue regarding the way that forging number was applied because sometimes it was upside down while at other times it was the right way up. And it was formatted in at least two different ways: 476 45 58; and 47645-58. Also there were at least two types of 6 used. You may be able to see one of those forging numbers on the inside of the forging? Photo?

Swingarm looks like it has reinforcement ribs on the left axle clip? If so they indicate 1963 or later. Some forging ID may also be visible?
Outside the R-H axle clip you may find forging number 47606-58 but it was used for 1958 models through 1972 models. Other forging ID may also be present?

Regarding the cases, it sounds like the crankcase production number on the R-H case may have fallen victim to a welding repair? Or did you find it? But even if you did, it won’t necessarily help indicate what model year the engine originally was unless you know the complete history of the bike.

You’re not able to see any numbers on the left side crank cover?
Do you mean you can’t see a crankcase production number? Here’s where to look.






Is anything stamped on top of the left case near the rear mounting bolt? Maybe the letter H or the number 7? Or nothing?

Regarding the outer primary cover, looks like it may accommodate nine screws as opposed to eight? I think they went from eight to nine as of 1983 models?
Eric

[echambers]

Frame casting numbers as you described crankcase stampings not finding anything on the left did find the number seven on the RH side.

[HD48FL]

The “7” indicates an FL case. If it was an FLH case, it would have an “H” where the “7” is.

There should be a belly number on that right side case.

But, none of this would help with titling.

[echambers]

Hopes of having a 58 are getting further and further out of sight. While looking for the belly number on the right side, the welds on the right side case that I mentioned, I am now noticing that some of them appear to be cracked. So I'm thinking I need to pull up a chair stare long and hard at this thing and sip a few cold ones. Not giving up just a little regroup. I believe everything happens for a reason this VIN number thing has shed light on a lot of things that could have jumped out and bit me later. Thanks.

[Rubone]

Hopes of having a 58 are getting further and further out of sight. While looking for the belly number on the right side, the welds on the right side case that I mentioned, I am now noticing that some of them appear to be cracked. So I'm thinking I need to pull up a chair stare long and hard at this thing and sip a few cold ones. Not giving up just a little regroup. I believe everything happens for a reason this VIN number thing has shed light on a lot of things that could have jumped out and bit me later. Thanks.

You may be able to title it as a home built bike, however there could be an issue if they want to see receipts for major components. It often also means complying with current requirements such as turn signals, front brake switch, etc. Once you get past the concept of a certain year there are lots of possibilities.

[HD48FL]

But the bike has some sort of VIN on the frame and I believe he said the engine. He said it wasn’t a Harley VIN.