J is for junky

[exeric]

This is a picture of a 1916 J motor that is going into the pile of 1916 stuff I've been collecting over a few years.

[exeric]

Sorry for the big picture. I grabbed the original and not the reduced pixel picture. Anyways, this pile of junk is my starting place for the '16 J project. The worst thing about this motor other than everything is the ground down "M I" at the beginning of Milwaukee. I've seen this on more than a few cases of this vintage and it is caused by the brake pedal pivot stud rubbing on the case. I have to wonder if that's why H-D recessed the lettering on engines from 1917 onwards.

I'm going by memory here so I can't remember the whole serial # but it's 168??MD. Does anyone have an idea what the MD means?

I've collected all of the big chunks that are particular to '16 such as the transmission, frame, and rear fender. Of coarse there are a lot of little things that make it a one year only bike but after years of messing with this stuff I have come to the conclusion that every motorcycle is one year only. Looking for parts is at the heart of this hobby. Rich guys can buy whole motorcycles and get the big thrill, but for us mere mortals finding that one part we have been looking for can be just as thrilling. And the beauty part is, we keep the excitement of a motorcycle project going because it is an ongoing search. I have seen a lot of rich guy come and go in this hobby because they get all of the good stuff too easy and without the work and struggle. I guess that's just sour grapes on my part. Everyone enjoys this stuff in their own way.

The frame for this bike is quite unusual. It's a 1916 frame but the front motor mount forging is unlike any J forging, and the rear fender mount is wide like a 1917 but has the 3 bolt fender bracket. The rear axel carriers are '15-16, and it had the early rear stand and fender with it. I can only assume that it was some mutant frame that H-D made in late 1916.

The interesting thing about doing a bike out of parts is the depth of research you have to do and the things you learn about models before and after the one you're doing. Of coarse you wind up boring the hell out of any poor sap that asks you how the bike is going and the wife thinks she's married to Percy P. Poindexter because our noses are burried in parts books.

Well, I hear some activity in the halls so I better pretend I'm doing something for the company. Progress reports will follow.

[AdminGuy]

That is neat. Can you share any history of where the motor came from? How you aquired it? Just fishing for a good story is all.

[23JDCA 808]

model 16M - standard commercial sidecar from
http://www.techsweb.us/hdvin1019.html

[exeric]

I think that list refers to the stamped prefix on the sidecar chassis itself. With a few exceptions, H-D didn't designate a motorcycle engine number with a sidecar classification simply because the sidecar was always an option. In other words every Harley big twin was sidecar ready and in many cases the dealer made the engine sidecar friendly. The exception to this could have been if this motor was part of a fleet purchase that was ordered with sidecars and low compression engines. Maybe Mark Massa could shed some light on J model engine numbers.

[MMasa]

exeric is correct however 23JDCA 808 may be too. I disagree with his info source however. The M isn't the letter in question here, the D is. The M simply designates a 1916 twin. I also have a 1916 set of cases with the D after the M, I once sold a motor with this trailing D, and I also know of a guy in AU who has the same thing. My motor and extra cases came out of New Zealand a few years back. I suspect that the D may indicate a bike fitted with a commercial (D)elivery sidecar outfit. These units seemed to be more popular overseas and it seems that many of the motors that I see with the D are either in, or came from AU and NZ. May these bikes have been fitted with compression plates and a larger rear sprocket? Mind you that this is only a WAG on my part.
Anybody else have another idea or better yet, PROOF!
Mark Masa

[exeric]

Mark, this motor was a prisoner of the Motherland and came out of Austrailia as well. Maybe there's some connection to the "D" and export models.

[Tommo]

The best source of information on this subject is the first two pages of the factory spare parts lists, most of which are reproduced nowdays.
The following is extracts from an original 1916 H.D. Motorcycle Parts list and with my one finger typing is going to take quite some time, but here goes.

QUOTE

EXPLANATION
We have endeavoured to list in this booklet all parts to make up our 1916 models, as follows;
Model 16-B Six horsepower, single cylinder.
Model 16-C Six horsepower, single cylinder, three speed.
Model 16-E Eleven horsepower, twin cylinder
Model 16-F Eleven horsepower, twin cylinder, three speed.
Model 16-J Eleven horsepower,twin cylinder,three speed,electric
Model 16-L Sidecar
Model-16-M Sidevan
Model 16-R Eleven horsepower,twin cylinder,speed roadster
Model 16-S Four horsepower,single cylinder,stripped stock.
Model 16-T Eleven horsepower,twin cylinder,stripped stock.

Parts for 16-R, 16-S and 16T are optional, therefore specify motor number when odering parts.
Most parts are illustrated. However we do not deem it necessary to show handlebars,forks,wheels,tanks,etc., because there can be no doubt as to the appearance and manes of such parts.

UNQUOTE

Further on this section appears.

QUOTE

MOTOR NUMBERS
To help our riders and dealers to identify the older models of Harley-Davidson Motorcycles, we are providing the following list of motor numbers;
motor numbers are always found on the base of the cylinder on the left hand side.
Numbers 2500 to 4200 1909 models
Numbers 4200 to 7600 1910 models
Numbers 7600 to 10,000 1911 models
All numbers followed by letter "A" only 1911 models
All numbers followed by letter "B" "AB" or "BA" 1912 models
All numbers followed by letter "C" 1913 models 9A
All numbers followed by letter "D" 1913 models 9B
All numbers followed by letter "E" 1913 models 9E or 9G
All numbers followed by letter "CF" 1914 models 10A
All numbers followed by letter "DG"or"G" 1914 models 10B or C
All numbers followed by letter "EH"or"H" 1914 models 10E,F or G
All numbers followed by letter "J" 1915 models 11B or C
All numbers followed by letter "K" 1915 models 11E or F or G
All numbers followed by letter "K" and preceded by "L"
1915 models 11H or J
All numbers followed by letter "L" 1916 models 16B or 16C
All numbers followed by letter "M" 1916 models 16E or 16F
All numbers followed by letter "M" and preceded by "L"
1916 models 16 J
All numbers preceded by "M" in 1914, 1915 and 1916 are FAST or RACING motors.

UNQUOTE

From this you should be able to deduce that your motor is from either a 1916 single speed or three speed, mag model twin.
As to what the D denotes I do not know but as Mark says it does appear on quite a few motors in this neck of the woods.
Hope this helps.
Tommo

[Tommo]

What I should also have pointed out is that with this example it is easy to see that the motor letter does not necessarily denote the model of the motorcycle.
M on the crankcase equals a model 16E of 16F.

[MMasa]

Like I said, the M denotes a 1916 twin. Magneto or electric, three speed or not. Tommo, Have you seen the D on other models besides the 1916 over there? Also, EXERIC, can you post a couple of pics of your frame. Sounds like a 1916/17 hybrid. If you can, please post the rear axle clips, the top rear fender mount under the seat and also, the area where the seat post tube meets the transmission plate.
Thanks
Mark Masa

[c.o.]

Exeric........junk you say......hah......that's as sweet as diamonds or gold in my humble opinion..... Like Admin-Guy said, a story would be good...... But then again, I'm just another fisherman searchin' for a story too.......It would also be a cool project to follow along with......if your inclined to keep us posted........

[AdminGuy]

Tommo - I really appreciate you helping guys out. Much Thanks.

Hopefully that listing will make for good reference for a number of people. And in turn, hopefully they will post a picture or story of their babies.

[Tommo]

I've just re-read what I posted and have spotted a couple of mistakes
Where I've put "manes" it should read "names" and it should read "at the base of the cylinder" not "on the base of the cylinder"
In my following post I've put "of" between 16E and 16F instead of "or"
Sorry about that folks. It must be time for new specs or something
Paul, I really do hope it helps someone but sometimes on here I really do wonder.

[exeric]

Mark and Tommo, I very much value your input because I know both of you have great deal empirical knowledge of J model Harley Davidsons. As popular as this series was, it astounds me that there is so much that is still hazy. But then, I guess you could say that about about all motorcycles of this period.

I'll try to get some pictures of the frame this weekend.

[HarleyCreation]

Another interesting serial number thread!

I'm looking at an internal H-D "Layout of 1916 Models & Motor Numbers" sheet dated Feb. 7, 1916.

There is no "Motor No." listed with an "MD" suffix. M and MS yes, but MD no!

The only place that the letter "D" shows up on this list is as a prefix to the "Model" designation.

Assuming this motor is normal production "M" ("1000M") and not a fast motor, there was a Model:

"D-16F Twin 3 speed Double Pedal Starter (motor number starting with 1000M"

As you can see, the "D" appears ahead of the Model number, and not listed as appearing on the motor number, but possibly did H-D stamp it there anyway?

The "D" in this context has a specific meaning: "Double Pedal Starter" (as opposed to kick-starter).

The 1916 kick-start model is one of my personal favorites. The modern H-D platform had come into being and there wouldn't be any significant change to it until 1949!