1932 VL dying after 2 miles

[loch]

Hi Gang,

I've been busy enjoying riding around town with the Sergeant. Still getting use to each other.

A few weeks ago I had difficulty starting a normally first kick machine. I hadn't charged the battery in a few weeks because I've been riding it every weekend since it got warm. Ttemps in the low 50s (F) means good riding. I took the battery out and put on charge. It took nearly all day to get it to full charge. It normally only takes a few hours. First kick again. Rode last weekend, no worries issues. Today I go out, first kick. Warm-up without any issues. Left the driveway and immediately noticed a sluggishness in the throttle response. This continued with dead spots or missing, jerky kind of riding. I thought maybe it was coil going bad. I made a ride around the neighborhood when it finally died. I attempted a restart - not happening. I pulled the points cover and checked the spark by separating the points. Weak. When I kicked it over it did absolutely nothing.

I have the battery on charge again and looks by the charge meter that it's pretty drained.

Some thoughts I'm having: if it started on the first kick then even with a weak battery the generator should supply enough power to run the machine without the battery, and probably charge the batter at the same time. I'm wondering if the additional taillight I added is stressing the electrical system. It's an LED light but nevertheless, was designed specifically for these machines.

All ears...

Regards,
Loch

[Jim]

My VL won't start or run with a weak battery. I use the B38-6A acid battery. They last me a couple of years. I use a "tender" on them over the winter... well... I have ONE tender that I move around to each bike. Is your Gen. putting out? Should be around 2Amps. Is there a "short" in your wiring draining the battery even while riding? Disconnect the additional light at the source and see if that helps.
On a fresh start (cold) I'm sure you've already primed the bike with 2-3 kicks, full choke with throttle wide open, so you've got plenty of gas in there to start and probably needing only a minimal "spark". hmmmm... just my thinking. Good Luck!!

Jim

[PanheadFred1]

You might want to check your generator output.

[Beemererik]

Hi Loch,

What you describe sounds like the battery may not be getting charged when the bike is running.

1. After you charge the battery, check the battery with a DC voltmeter on your bench. Then install it in the bike and check the voltage at the battery terminals with the ignition switch off. It should be a bit over 6V or 12V depending on how your system is setup. Both readings should be very close. If it drops significantly when you install it in the bike there is another issue that needs to be troubleshot. Again, this is with the ignition off.

2. Then start the bike and rev it up a little. You should see the voltage increase above what you measured by 0.5V to 1.5V or so. If it is not increasing and is possibly dropping that is an indication your generator is not putting out or possibly is not connected to the battery due to a broken wire, dirty contact in a switch, or a fuse blown.

3. If the battery voltage is rising when the throttle is applied, that is pointing to a battery going south.

After you charge a battery and it is sitting on a table not connected to anything. The resting voltage is around 12.4V or higher depending on battery condition. 6.2V if you have a 6V battery.

I have seen batteries take charge from a charger successfully and read 10V after they relaxed a bit. This was the result of a bad cell. Lead Acid batteries are 2V per cell. So, 3 cells in series for a 6V battery (3x2=6) and 6 cells in series for a 12V battery (6x2=12).

[loch]

Erik, PanheadFred, thank you both!

I'm leaning toward a battery going bad. The generator was rebuild when the machine first arrived under my care. I cannot remember the gentleman's name, a reputable guy who does only generators. I think Paul perhaps. Anyway. Thank you Erik for the detailed troubleshooting guide. I will follow this trail first. 6V.

Jim, yes to

On a fresh start (cold) I'm sure you've already primed the bike with 2-3 kicks, full choke with throttle wide open, so you've got plenty of gas in there to start and probably needing only a minimal "spark".

. I am bursting with pride every time I kick it because, after following these steps it's always a first kick start. So when it doesn't start, I know something is wrong. Before I connect the battery during Erik's troubleshooting steps I will disconnect the additional lights and the period repop spot lights I'm running on the engine guard. I've never actually used the spot lights since mounting over a year ago.


Any suggestions on testing the amps on the generator? In the bike? On the bench? Set up if in the bike. I assume the multimeter needs to go inline with the current. But where?

regards,
Loch

[loch]

Add on to the previous, the battery is also at least two years old.

[Jim]

Add on to the previous, the battery is also at least two years old.


Any suggestions on testing the amps on the generator? In the bike? On the bench? Set up if in the bike. I assume the multimeter needs to go inline with the current. But where?

regards,
Loch

Battery is probably just going bad at 2 years old.

I always just relied on my AMP gauge to see how the GEN is putting out. The multimeter most likely should go on the battery, POS to POS and NEG to NEG. I "THINK" that an ANALOG meter will give you a better reading than a digital one. About a year ago, I was using my Digital Multimeter to see how many volts the GEN on my Indian was putting out, but the readout was VERY erratic, and then I read that a digital one acts like that sometimes. I never tried to check the volts on either of my VLs because the AMP gauge was working. I don't have an Analog one anymore...

[loch]

I have a digital Fluke that was issue to me decades ago when I was in the Nav. It's a real workhorse. But hasn't been calibrated since I left the Navy.

Yes for voltage - directly to the battery positive and negative terminals.

Checking the voltage from the regulator, positive to the regulator terminal, negative to any known ground point. An engine bolt is usually a good place.

6.45 off charge before install.

6.45 after install.

One kick start! Yessss.

6.18 when running. Didn't increase with increased revs.

Checked the connection at the regulator that goes to the battery, 5.87. Nominal increase when revving.

The regulator is an electronic one that I got from the guy who rebuilt the generator. It replaces the original regulator.

I also have circuit breaker installed on the ground from the batter to the instrument panel as suggested by many. It breaks the circuit in the event there's a short somewhere.

One the posts on the generator goes to the circuit breaker. I have to check the wiring diagram. That should also be 6.something. If it is then there's a bad connection somewhere? If it isn't, if it's 5.87 then the generator is going bad?

Oh my ammeter never worked and I never thought to replace it.

[Beemererik]

Hi Loch,

The battery voltage dropping to 6.18V with the bike running and recently being fully charged would lead me to believe that the battery is ok. If it was bad I would expect it to drop a lot more.

The fact that the battery voltage is not increasing with the engine running and increased RPM does point to the generator. It does not mean the generator or regulator are bad, it could mean that there is a battery/circuit connection issue. This could be a wiring issue, or switch issue. I don't know how VL's are wired.


I don't have a VL and don't know which Generator is on it. Normally a generator will have two terminals with the case being ground, one is the output (A) which recharges the battery and the second is a connection to the field windings (F). This would be the setup in the two-brush generator conversion done by Paul. By increasing current through the field windings, you increase the output of the generator. The regulator controls this current. You can measure the voltage on (F) and it will move around, the moving voltage is varying current through the field winding. It monitors the battery voltage and varies voltage to the field winding to maintain a desired battery voltage setpoint.

If you measure 6.18V at the battery and 5.87V at the regulator while its running, I would not be so concerned with the difference. The coil pulls a large slug of current so I would expect to see some voltage drop in the wiring harness. However - if things were functioning properly this voltage would be higher charging the battery and supplying the bike.

You can test a generator and regulator with a battery. You remove the components and test them on the bench, but it's best to do that if you have a good understanding of how they operate. So, it is not something I would recommend to everyone.

You can take a battery and connect it to the generator and if you wire it up properly, it will spin. A generator with a battery applied is a DC motor.
You can spin a generator with an electric drill and connect up a battery and regulator to see if it is operating properly.

Paul Benassi is probably who you got the setup from, and it might be best to call him after you verify all of the wiring is connected (or still has continuity).

-Erik

[loch]

Erik, thanks!

Yes, Paul Benassi. He rebuilt the generator converting it to 3 brush I guess? Today the plan is test the generator in the machine. I found instructions online that include disconnecting the F and A terminals. Then running the engine with a multimeter set to VDC, positive lead to A and ground to a reliable ground on the bike. I'm going to try this first and then let the results guide my next steps.

Is it possible that the battery drains if I only run the machine in the neighborhood where the average speed is only 18 mph, top speed of 38mph and time duration of around 15 minutes? During my run in this my test loop while I worked out the various fine tuning that needed to be done.

I'm also going to look for Paul's information and contact him.

Regards,
Loch

[Beemererik]

Hi Loch,

I have run bikes as a total loss electrical system when the generator is no longer operational This was done by connecting a battery directly to the coil and have successfully run a few hours on a healthy battery. In this scenario you are taking energy out of the battery and not replacing it. So, the higher your load the shorter period of time you get. The bike needs power to the coil to operate at a minimum. If you start turning on lights, charging your phone etc., the load goes up. So, with a normal capacity battery and not running anything but ignition, you would normally get a couple hours running minimum.

Regarding the generator test, if that is the one that Harley has outlined, it might be for a three-brush generator. The three-brush field winding is wired slightly different from two-brush. For three-brush you have two separate field windings. One is connected to the A terminal and always energized when the bike is on. The second is connected to the F terminal and only energized when the lights are on. This increases the output current for the added load. The way the F terminal is energized is by applying 6V to the F connection.

If your generator has been rewired to two-brush, both field windings are always energized. The output current is controlled dynamically by the regulator. This generator setup is a little different as the field windings are connected internally to 6V on one end. The other end of the field windings are connected to the F terminal which goes to the regulator. The closer the regulator pulls the F terminal to ground electrically the more current flows through the field windings increasing output current. So, by grounding the F terminal you should get maximum output out of the generator.

In two-brush configuration, if you don't have a battery connected to the generator (A terminal wire lifted) and you ground the F terminal, the generator functioning requires some residual magnetism to get the current flow started with the bike running, then the field windings will have full generator current flowing through them and the generator should go to its full unregulated output voltage. I think this was around 20V max from memory.


I would confirm all this with Paul prior to your test.as I am going from memory. Make sure you have a two-brush configuration and grounding F is full output current.


Paul would have converted a three-brush generator to two-brush as this is an upgrade.

In three-brush, the third brush is moved around to set maximum output current. The Delco "regulator" in a three-brush setup is not a regulator at all. It is a switch that closes when the generator output voltage is higher than the battery voltage, connecting the generator to the battery. The battery is actually the "regulator" it absorbs excess current and clamps the voltage to battery voltage. The voltage across the field windings is fixed and does not vary.

Two-brush is used with a true regulator. The regulator samples the battery voltage and controls the current through the field windings to adjust generator output current on the fly to ensure the battery is fully charged and the system current draws is met.

-Erik

[loch]

Erik,

I used your setup to test the generator as a 2 brush. The voltage output from A terminal, engine revving, was -18.59 VDC (the absolute value of this reading is the max while revving. A nominal absolute value is of course lower when the machine isn't revving). This is with the multimeter positive lead on the generator A terminal and the negative multimeter lead on a ground point on the bike and the F terminal also grounded to the bike. Obviously, if I reverse the leads such that the ground wire is on the A terminal and and the positive lead grounded to the machine the readings would be positive.

I'm curious why the voltage is negative in this configuration.

I also should note note that I did connect the battery incorrectly once many months ago. I don't think I tried to start the machine with the battery incorrectly connected. And I don't think it would have done anything to the generator since the regulator is between it and the battery.

Regards,
Loch

[Beemererik]

Hi Loch,

Good test.

I have a theory that it is possible when you connected the battery in reverse you may have changed the polarity of the field windings which could be why you have a negative voltage at terminal A. You may have also damaged the regulator in this process. Two separate issues.

As a test, you could ground F on the generator. With A on the generator disconnected from the bike. Connect a wire from the battery positive terminal to the A terminal momentarily (negative of the battery is connected to the generator through the frame). This sends a positive current through the field windings. This should polarize the field correctly. Retry the test and see if you get a positive voltage out of the generator.

If you find this corrects the polarity, reconnect the wiring and see if you are charging now.

If the regulator is Paul's - it is a potted unit in an aluminum housing. At the top there is a small LED. When the bike is running this LED will be pulsing or just on. So, if the generator is putting out the correct polarity voltage and the battery is still not charging. If the LED stays off, it's possible the regulator was damaged by reverse voltage.

The modern electronic regulator has active circuitry in it - like your cell phone would have. This would not normally tolerate reverse voltages of any magnitude. You would have to design in additional reverse protection circuitry to handle full reverse voltages. I don't know if this regulator has that feature.

-Erik

[loch]

Hi Erik,

Funny how things get missed. Like when I completed your polarity procedure and then tried to start the bike. Kicked and kicked and nothing. "What's going on? It started fine this morning."

Forgot to insert the circuit breaker into the ground wire from the battery. It's under the instrument panel and is the single most forgotten aspect of starting this machine.

Anyway, something else I didn't do correctly. I didn't leave the battery connected to ground when I flashed the A terminal. So the procedure was nearly a waste of time. Not totally, I'm not likely to make that mistake again. Before I realized my mistake I started the bike and of course everything was nearly the same. The voltage coming off the generator was a little higher, -12.xxx VDC rather than -18.45 VDC.

It's raining now so I get a reprieve. I do most of my work outside. So everything is back in my overcrowded garage until it stops and I am able to give it another go.

In the meantime, for everyone else following this minor saga, here's a really good link I found to accompany Erik's procedures.

https://www.cycleelectricinc.com/Tes...Generators.htm

Reading this link made me realize I had done Erik's polarizing procedure incorrectly.

Regards,
Loch

[loch]

Hi Erik,

Thank you for the all the great information and the advice.

The skies finally cleared up today and I was able to flash the A terminal. Got a healthy spark when I touched the lead from the battery positive terminal to A terminal on the generator. Connected everything and started it up. The green light on Paul's module started flickering immediately.

I am very happy to report that I'm getting healthy readings at the battery with high revs (7 - 8 VDC). Recall previously I only read battery voltage. And what a difference in throttle response and the LED bulb in the headlamp is much brighter and lacks the flickering that I am so used to. Now I know what it's supposed to look like when the electrical circuit is functioning correctly.

At this point I don't see any reason to check the generator again. It will likely be the same as before but with positive values rather than negative.

Time to ride!

Regards,
Loch