Non Starter

[JSB55]

OK, Experts, here we go again ...

54 ServiCar bought at reputable auction some years back. Seller turned out to live very close to me, seemed an honest guy, and swore the bike ran fine before he shipped it to the auction. He even gave me his contact info in case I had questions once I got it home.

Finally at the point of wanting it on the road, and it is cranky. I drained the gas tank when I knew it was going to sit for a while, and just put one gallon of fresh gas (regular) in a few days ago. If I start to unscrew the fuel strainer cap, I get gas coming out, so it seems likely I'm getting fuel.

Linkert Carb rebuilt by ITW, manifold installed with Peek seals and pressure/soapy water tested. New plugs (Champion D16, gapped .028) with a dab of Dielectric Grease where the wires connect. Timing checked x 3 using flywheel TDC mark, watching the front intake pushrod for max valve closure, and test light on the points lever. The mark on the timing cam is dead on aligned with the felt on the points lever, with the twist grip in the full advance (twisted back) position. Points gap is .020 with a tad of resistance, and .022 feeler won't slide in there. Valve timing and lifter gaps double checked, and are spot on. Lifters move freely, and it appears all valves are opening/closing normally. Spark plug wires newly seated in the OEM coil, and I have spark at both plugs.

When kicking over, every third or fourth kick, I get kind of like a dull backfire sound, or maybe it's one cylinder firing once. I can see spark at the points, and at both plugs. I've tried advanced, retarded, and in between for the manual advance and nothing seems to change. Ditto with choke open, closed, and in between.

Battery shows 6.4 volts, drops to 6.08 with ignition on, and 5.75 with the headlight also on. Load tester, however, drops it to more like 4.75 volts, although it goes right back to 6.4 when the load is shut off. Amps are 14 +/-.

Compression test shows both cylinders about equal, but only around 20 PSI, when they should be more like 50+, but this engine has not run in ten years or thereabouts.

If low compression is my problem, anything I can try so I can avoid an engine rebuild for a year or two? I thought about popping the heads off and installing new gaskets, in case they are dried out and leaking.

Is the battery more likely my issue? From what I've read, it should start even with a marginal battery.

Thanks in advance for any and all pointers on getting this thing running.

P.S. last time I had a kicker only bike was 50 years ago *LOL*


EDIT: Forgot to mention, Condenser checks out good, but I had a second one, so I've tried with both. Coil resistance is 1.5 - 2.0 between the Primary contacts, and 3.6 between the Secondaries. Hard to measure Primary to Secondary, except by holding one meter lead to the wire where it attaches to the spark plug, and the other lead to the Primary on the coil. Meter jumps around between about 7 Ohms to 15, with an occasional spike to 20+, probably because it's hard to get reliable contact on both poles and my grip moves a bit.

[Jerry Wieland]

20 psi is real low compression but maybe rings are stuck due to long term storage. I would squirt some ATF into the cylinders and maybe run the engine with an electric motor for awhile to see if it improves. Jerry

[Steve Slocombe]

That flywheel timing mark does not show TDC but where the points should just be opening on full advance. An easy mistake, which I've made before, is to set the timing at the large end of the timer cam rather than the small end. Quite often you can get the bike running on one cylinder, then waste a lot of time on looking at other assemblies in trying to correct it. I also agree with Jerry that 20 psi is way low compression, and oil in the cylinders should help.

[kitabel]

With that CCP you have no engine vacuum, the carburetor has almost no signal.
Whatever is causing that is your problem.

[Architect]

Compression should be more like 80-90 psi on a 45, figure that out first. Good luck.

[T. Cotten]

Compression should be more like 80-90 psi on a 45, figure that out first. Good luck.

Almost, Architect!

5 to 1 means 5 times 14.7, or just under seventy-five at most. Usually anything over forty-five will fire.. if all other things are in order.

And I'm sorry I must always ask, JSB55:
Did you use a constant, regulated air supply for the bubble-test?
You can usually check the head gaskets with soapy water. too, saving an unnecessary removal. (And the sparkplugs, etc.)

You are on your own with ITW and mass-produced PEEK seals; Good luck!

....Cotten

[JSB55]

20 psi is real low compression but maybe rings are stuck due to long term storage. I would squirt some ATF into the cylinders and maybe run the engine with an electric motor for awhile to see if it improves. Jerry

Thanks, Jerry. I was afraid the compression was too low to get anywhere, and I had thought about some lube in the cylinders. Definitely will try that next!

[JSB55]

That flywheel timing mark does not show TDC but where the points should just be opening on full advance. An easy mistake, which I've made before, is to set the timing at the large end of the timer cam rather than the small end. Quite often you can get the bike running on one cylinder, then waste a lot of time on looking at other assemblies in trying to correct it. I also agree with Jerry that 20 psi is way low compression, and oil in the cylinders should help.

Thanks for the input, Steve. I'm definitely set dead on the timing mark on the small side of the timer cam. Oil in the cylinders is next, along with Cotten's suggestions.

[JSB55]

Almost, Architect!

5 to 1 means 5 times 14.7, or just under seventy-five at most. Usually anything over forty-five will fire.. if all other things are in order.

And I'm sorry I must always ask, JSB55:
Did you use a constant, regulated air supply for the bubble-test?
You can usually check the head gaskets with soapy water. too, saving an unnecessary removal. (And the sparkplugs, etc.)

You are on your own with ITW and mass-produced PEEK seals; Good luck!

....Cotten

Thanks, Cotten. Yup, compressor with flow turned way down below 20, and a hand held nozzle with integrated pressure gauge. I had thought about checking the head gaskets the same way, but hadn't tried yet. Will do!

If I tear this all down, where do I get PEEK seals that aren't mass produced?

[T. Cotten]

"Flow", JSB55?

Although I pioneered PEEK seals a couple of decades ago, today there are others that custom-cut, but the price of the material is becoming prohibitive: https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/63403844

The mass-produced seals were made to brass dimensions, which was intentionally thin to allow the stiff brass to arch and 'bite' to seal at both ends. PEEK benefits greatly when maximized within the nut, as it seals by compliance.

Failures of mass-productions and one-offs that crossed my benches usually could be blamed upon a loose fit upon the spigots, a mis-match of the bevel with modern reproduction nuts, or obviously worn spigots.
(Even if worn spigots manage to seal, blemishes will be impressed into the compliant material. An impression of the nipple upon the face of the seal can be easily scrubbed away upon flat sandpaper, however sanding blemishes in the bore would loosen it, where a squeeze-on fit is prudent. Thus re-machined spigots assure re-useability of the very expensive seals.)

It you don't get bubbles with a proper test, then by all means get your money's worth!
But please keep them snug,...

....Cotten

[JSB55]

"Flow", JSB55?

Although I pioneered PEEK seals a couple of decades ago, today there are others that custom-cut, but the price of the material is becoming prohibitive: https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/63403844

The mass-produced seals were made to brass dimensions, which was intentionally thin to allow the stiff brass to arch and 'bite' to seal at both ends. PEEK benefits greatly when maximized within the nut, as it seals by compliance.

Failures of mass-productions and one-offs that crossed my benches usually could be blamed upon a loose fit upon the spigots, a mis-match of the bevel with modern reproduction nuts, or obviously worn spigots.
(Even if worn spigots manage to seal, blemishes will be impressed into the compliant material. An impression of the nipple upon the face of the seal can be easily scrubbed away upon flat sandpaper, however sanding blemishes in the bore would loosen it, where a squeeze-on fit is prudent. Thus re-machined spigots assure re-useability of the very expensive seals.)

It you don't get bubbles with a proper test, then by all means get your money's worth!
But please keep them snug,...

....Cotten

Thanks for all that info, Cotten. Seems like I learn something every time you post.

By "flow" I meant the pressure outgoing to the air hose from the compressor. Compressor tank pressurized to 50+, regulator for the hose turned down to about 20 PSI. I screwed/glued a schrader valve into a hole drilled in a rubber stopper which is a super tight force fit into the mouth of the manifold. Tire inflator with integrated gauge completes the setup, and I pressurized the manifold to about 15 PSI and sprayed the manifold to cylinder area liberally with the soapy water. Tightened the nuts til no more bubbles, let everything sit a while, popped the rubber stopper out and back in, and redid the test. This was all a year or more ago, but I tested them again just last week, since I had pulled the carb off to make sure all the passages were clean. At the risk of attracting some unusual comments, my nuts are snug ... *LOL*

Looks like I'm in for an engine rebuild due to the grievously low compression. I had hoped to defer that a year or two while another project continues to absorb time and money, but no such luck, it appears. Meanwhile, I'm letting the cylinders soak a while in some ATF, after which I'll try a pressure/soapy water test on the heads, just in case I can get away with no more than new head gaskets, for now.

[T. Cotten]

Forgive me JSB55,...

But if you are using a Schrader valve, it ain't constant.

Please understand that I want you and others to avoid "false negatives". They can be quite discouraging, as well as expensive.

Without a test plate, it takes three hands, and somebody on the other side of the machine with a flashlight to inspect for you, as it can take half a minute to show tiny leaks, as a blister of foam.
(A stopper is the only way to test the inlet nipples separately, manifold removed, but its gonna pop out instantly at fifteen!)

I wouldn't worry about the headgaskets,.. yet.

....Cotten

[JSB55]

Forgive me JSB55,...

But if you are using a Schrader valve, it ain't constant.

Please understand that I want you and others to avoid "false negatives". They can be quite discouraging, as well as expensive.

Without a test plate, it takes three hands, and somebody on the other side of the machine with a flashlight to inspect for you, as it can take half a minute to show tiny leaks, as a blister of foam.
(A stopper is the only way to test the inlet nipples separately, manifold removed, but its gonna pop out instantly at fifteen!)

I wouldn't worry about the headgaskets,.. yet.

....Cotten

No offense taken, Cotten. I ask questions here hoping to LEARN from the experts how to do things the right way. I found your article on the Hydra Glide site while searching for "manifold test plate". Now to hunt down (or make) both the 3 bolt version for this 45, AND a 4 bolt for the 65 FL I'm also rebuilding. If you or anyone else has links for where to buy them prefab, I'm all ears. And it occurs to me I now have a use for that suspension pump I hardly ever use on my modern bagger!

[T. Cotten]

I'm stacking them up for D-port right now, JSB55!

(ABS plastic as shown at http://virtualindian.org/11techleaktest.html)

Please feel free to email me directly at liberty@npoint.net,

Looking forward to helping any way I can,

....Cotten

[JSB55]

I'm stacking them up for D-port right now, JSB55!

(ABS plastic as shown at http://virtualindian.org/11techleaktest.html)

Please feel free to email me directly at liberty@npoint.net,

Looking forward to helping any way I can,

....Cotten

SWEET !!! Email will be on its way momentarily.