Non Starter

[JSB55]

Personally, JSB...

I wouldn't take it apart until I filled it with kerosene, and actually found out if the seal was bad, and any other places it may be leaking.

Beyond that, got drywall screws and pliers?

Getting the old one out is easy. Getting the new one in takes more resourcefulness. Good luck!

...Cotten

Good point, Cotten. I figured I'd pull and clean it and let it sit for a week or so to see where it's leaking. Hadn't thought about kerosene, but that's a great suggestion.

Would be a blessing if all that gunk and oil on the bottom had just come from the engine, but there is so much, I rather suspect the studs.

As for the seal, if I have to replace it, it appears I might be able to rig something up with the Jims Steering Head Bearing and Race Installer I already have. I also thought about a short piece of PVC to act as the "guide" in place of the specialty tool. Open to better suggestions, of course.

Thanks for your input!

John

[T. Cotten]

Personally, JSB...

I wouldn't take it apart until I filled it with kerosene, and actually found out if the seal was bad, and any other places it may be leaking.

Beyond that, got drywall screws and pliers?

Getting the old one out is easy. Getting the new one in takes more resourcefulness. Good luck!

...Cotten

[JSB55]

So, after soaking the cylinders with Marvel Mystery OIl for a week, and nothing I did ever getting me to more than 30 psi of compression, I finally bit the bullet and pulled the engine. Sho nuff, not a trace of the red stuff in the cylinders, so the rings aren't sealing correctly, plus the valves and guides are toast. Off to my trusty engine builder, who can do a *far* better rebuild than I could.

With the engine out, I figured I might as well go Full Monty and pull the transmission, at least for visual inspection, and to see if I can find the source of serious leaking of fluid. Going to tackle that myself, following some YouTube vids, and the impeccably detailed post here from "Pa", showing a complete rebuild, step by step, if I end up having to do that. HOWEVER, "Pa" used the HD tool (12735-42) for the Main Seal extraction and replacement, and, of course, I can't find that, or an aftermarket replacement, anywhere.

At a minimum, I'd like to replace all the gaskets and seals, and reseat/reseal the mounting studs. Is there a workaround for the Main Seal without the special tool? This is a 54 ServiCar with 3 speed+reverse transmission.

Thanks for any pointers!

[JSB55]

I'm on my wife's computer right now, JSB5,

And won't get your email until I get home to the shop..

However, Steve's note on your timing mark is paramount, for even a perfect manifold and blue-printed carb wouldn't run out of time.

And as Jerry suggested, a penetrant, like Marvel or even kerosene flooded and soaked upon the rings might release them.
(I used a 'speed-wrench' with a socket upon the sprocket nut, mostly for fresh assemblies, and it allows you to reverse the motor if it helps.)

But please do the same thing with oil before firing!

....Cotten

The flywheel vertical line timing mark is in the "window", front cylinder pushrods at their low point, mark on the narrow end of the timing cam dead on aligned to the felt on the points lever, and a test light confirms the points are completing the circuit, the latter two with the timer in full advance position. If there's something else I should be trying, I don't know what it is, other than reducing the gap to .018, which makes my 65 Pan run a little better.

For penetrant I used the old school 50/50 ATF/Acetone, but I also have Kroil, Strong Arm Spray, and Marvel Mystery Oil on hand, if one of those would be better.

Been turning it over with the kicker, but I'll see what I can rig up for the sprocket nut over the weekend.

[T. Cotten]

I'm on my wife's computer right now, JSB5,

And won't get your email until I get home to the shop..

However, Steve's note on your timing mark is paramount, for even a perfect manifold and blue-printed carb wouldn't run out of time.

And as Jerry suggested, a penetrant, like Marvel or even kerosene flooded and soaked upon the rings might release them.
(I used a 'speed-wrench' with a socket upon the sprocket nut, mostly for fresh assemblies, and it allows you to reverse the motor if it helps.)

But please do the same thing with oil before firing!

....Cotten

[JSB55]

I'm stacking them up for D-port right now, JSB55!

(ABS plastic as shown at http://virtualindian.org/11techleaktest.html)

Please feel free to email me directly at liberty@npoint.net,

Looking forward to helping any way I can,

....Cotten

SWEET !!! Email will be on its way momentarily.

[T. Cotten]

I'm stacking them up for D-port right now, JSB55!

(ABS plastic as shown at http://virtualindian.org/11techleaktest.html)

Please feel free to email me directly at liberty@npoint.net,

Looking forward to helping any way I can,

....Cotten

[JSB55]

Forgive me JSB55,...

But if you are using a Schrader valve, it ain't constant.

Please understand that I want you and others to avoid "false negatives". They can be quite discouraging, as well as expensive.

Without a test plate, it takes three hands, and somebody on the other side of the machine with a flashlight to inspect for you, as it can take half a minute to show tiny leaks, as a blister of foam.
(A stopper is the only way to test the inlet nipples separately, manifold removed, but its gonna pop out instantly at fifteen!)

I wouldn't worry about the headgaskets,.. yet.

....Cotten

No offense taken, Cotten. I ask questions here hoping to LEARN from the experts how to do things the right way. I found your article on the Hydra Glide site while searching for "manifold test plate". Now to hunt down (or make) both the 3 bolt version for this 45, AND a 4 bolt for the 65 FL I'm also rebuilding. If you or anyone else has links for where to buy them prefab, I'm all ears. And it occurs to me I now have a use for that suspension pump I hardly ever use on my modern bagger!

[T. Cotten]

Forgive me JSB55,...

But if you are using a Schrader valve, it ain't constant.

Please understand that I want you and others to avoid "false negatives". They can be quite discouraging, as well as expensive.

Without a test plate, it takes three hands, and somebody on the other side of the machine with a flashlight to inspect for you, as it can take half a minute to show tiny leaks, as a blister of foam.
(A stopper is the only way to test the inlet nipples separately, manifold removed, but its gonna pop out instantly at fifteen!)

I wouldn't worry about the headgaskets,.. yet.

....Cotten

[JSB55]

"Flow", JSB55?

Although I pioneered PEEK seals a couple of decades ago, today there are others that custom-cut, but the price of the material is becoming prohibitive: https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/63403844

The mass-produced seals were made to brass dimensions, which was intentionally thin to allow the stiff brass to arch and 'bite' to seal at both ends. PEEK benefits greatly when maximized within the nut, as it seals by compliance.

Failures of mass-productions and one-offs that crossed my benches usually could be blamed upon a loose fit upon the spigots, a mis-match of the bevel with modern reproduction nuts, or obviously worn spigots.
(Even if worn spigots manage to seal, blemishes will be impressed into the compliant material. An impression of the nipple upon the face of the seal can be easily scrubbed away upon flat sandpaper, however sanding blemishes in the bore would loosen it, where a squeeze-on fit is prudent. Thus re-machined spigots assure re-useability of the very expensive seals.)

It you don't get bubbles with a proper test, then by all means get your money's worth!
But please keep them snug,...

....Cotten

Thanks for all that info, Cotten. Seems like I learn something every time you post.

By "flow" I meant the pressure outgoing to the air hose from the compressor. Compressor tank pressurized to 50+, regulator for the hose turned down to about 20 PSI. I screwed/glued a schrader valve into a hole drilled in a rubber stopper which is a super tight force fit into the mouth of the manifold. Tire inflator with integrated gauge completes the setup, and I pressurized the manifold to about 15 PSI and sprayed the manifold to cylinder area liberally with the soapy water. Tightened the nuts til no more bubbles, let everything sit a while, popped the rubber stopper out and back in, and redid the test. This was all a year or more ago, but I tested them again just last week, since I had pulled the carb off to make sure all the passages were clean. At the risk of attracting some unusual comments, my nuts are snug ... *LOL*

Looks like I'm in for an engine rebuild due to the grievously low compression. I had hoped to defer that a year or two while another project continues to absorb time and money, but no such luck, it appears. Meanwhile, I'm letting the cylinders soak a while in some ATF, after which I'll try a pressure/soapy water test on the heads, just in case I can get away with no more than new head gaskets, for now.

[T. Cotten]

"Flow", JSB55?

Although I pioneered PEEK seals a couple of decades ago, today there are others that custom-cut, but the price of the material is becoming prohibitive: https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/63403844

The mass-produced seals were made to brass dimensions, which was intentionally thin to allow the stiff brass to arch and 'bite' to seal at both ends. PEEK benefits greatly when maximized within the nut, as it seals by compliance.

Failures of mass-productions and one-offs that crossed my benches usually could be blamed upon a loose fit upon the spigots, a mis-match of the bevel with modern reproduction nuts, or obviously worn spigots.
(Even if worn spigots manage to seal, blemishes will be impressed into the compliant material. An impression of the nipple upon the face of the seal can be easily scrubbed away upon flat sandpaper, however sanding blemishes in the bore would loosen it, where a squeeze-on fit is prudent. Thus re-machined spigots assure re-useability of the very expensive seals.)

It you don't get bubbles with a proper test, then by all means get your money's worth!
But please keep them snug,...

....Cotten

[JSB55]

Almost, Architect!

5 to 1 means 5 times 14.7, or just under seventy-five at most. Usually anything over forty-five will fire.. if all other things are in order.

And I'm sorry I must always ask, JSB55:
Did you use a constant, regulated air supply for the bubble-test?
You can usually check the head gaskets with soapy water. too, saving an unnecessary removal. (And the sparkplugs, etc.)

You are on your own with ITW and mass-produced PEEK seals; Good luck!

....Cotten

Thanks, Cotten. Yup, compressor with flow turned way down below 20, and a hand held nozzle with integrated pressure gauge. I had thought about checking the head gaskets the same way, but hadn't tried yet. Will do!

If I tear this all down, where do I get PEEK seals that aren't mass produced?

[JSB55]

That flywheel timing mark does not show TDC but where the points should just be opening on full advance. An easy mistake, which I've made before, is to set the timing at the large end of the timer cam rather than the small end. Quite often you can get the bike running on one cylinder, then waste a lot of time on looking at other assemblies in trying to correct it. I also agree with Jerry that 20 psi is way low compression, and oil in the cylinders should help.

Thanks for the input, Steve. I'm definitely set dead on the timing mark on the small side of the timer cam. Oil in the cylinders is next, along with Cotten's suggestions.

[JSB55]

20 psi is real low compression but maybe rings are stuck due to long term storage. I would squirt some ATF into the cylinders and maybe run the engine with an electric motor for awhile to see if it improves. Jerry

Thanks, Jerry. I was afraid the compression was too low to get anywhere, and I had thought about some lube in the cylinders. Definitely will try that next!

[T. Cotten]

Compression should be more like 80-90 psi on a 45, figure that out first. Good luck.

Almost, Architect!

5 to 1 means 5 times 14.7, or just under seventy-five at most. Usually anything over forty-five will fire.. if all other things are in order.

And I'm sorry I must always ask, JSB55:
Did you use a constant, regulated air supply for the bubble-test?
You can usually check the head gaskets with soapy water. too, saving an unnecessary removal. (And the sparkplugs, etc.)

You are on your own with ITW and mass-produced PEEK seals; Good luck!

....Cotten