'03 Warwick

[HarleyCreation]

I can't recall another Merkel make although they were produced in more places than Milwaukee. I believe Pottstown, PA and Middletown, OH were on the list as well. I don't see a correlation between Merkel and Indian or Thor at all, while Merkel's influence on Harley-Davidson is quite obvious. It seems as though Greg may have or has access to a large literature collection. It is always nice to see the facts to back up the story though. I think when one writes such abstract historical accounts that possibly the thought of anyone questioning the story does not occur to the writer...........just a thought.

I wonder if when he wrote Merkle (Merkel) he really meant "Light." What I mean by that is that around 1909 Merkel & Light merged and Light had been building an Indian-like motorcycle, the Thor-Bred, I believe, and maybe he got the names mixed up. The Merkel kept its own identity and the Indian clone Light was phased out as that style motorcycle became obsolete.

[HarleyCreation]

I found an interesting site.........

http://www.ozebook.com/w.htm

If one clicks on W and finds Warwick, there are two listings. One is for the U.K. and one is from the U.S. The U.S. version is dated 1903 only and and the U.K. version is 1909-1915. The interesting part that I noted was that it indicates that the U.S. Warwick was made by PMC. Now PMC is listed as a U.K. bike 1908-1915. Now when you scroll up to Pennington it says U.K. 1897. But when you click on it you get a screen that shows the U.S. with a date of 1894. You get a pretty good write-up on the man. Now it seems to me that when Pennington left the U.S. for England he built tricycles. When you click on PMC you get a tricycle. Now am I way out of whack to think that there could be some relation?

That's an ambitious website and I think that the webmaster put the PMC on the wrong Warwick. He has it on the American Warwick (1903). It seems to me that it should be attached to the English Warwick instead as the dates match too.

[c.o.]

That's an ambitious website and I think that the webmaster put the PMC on the wrong Warwick. He has it on the American Warwick (1903). It seems to me that it should be attached to the English Warwick instead as the dates match too.

Yeah, I think your right. I was feveriously searching about last night and I think my imagination possibly started to play a roll in my thinking. But it does seem to me that quite a few of the early American machines had similarities to the Indian just with the fact that Aurora spread powerplants all over the place. As far as the Warwick / Connecticut reference in Greg's article............it seems to me that Oscar Hedstrom built his initial proto-types in a bicycle shop in Connecticut, prior to shipping them to Springfield for Hendee's approval. Maybe Warwick, built it's machine and just sold it in Springfield? All I know is that so far we have a lot more questions than answers!

[c.o.]

I just got finished re-watching Indian Summer on DVD. The interview with Andy Anderson was quite re-freshing. I just wish that a person would have had the foresight to ask questions when some of these old-timers were still alive. Andy knew Oscar Hedstrom personally and I'm sure would have been able to answer all of these questions with ease. My hat is off to the pioneers that are still among us. They are treasures that's for sure!

[c.o.]

Here's a couple pics............... Now could we consider a machine like this as one of the first motorcycles? I wonder if it still exists?

[c.o.]

Here's Hendee..........

[c.o.]

And of course the man himself.........Mr. Hedstrom.

[HarleyCreation]

Yeah, I think your right. I was feveriously searching about last night and I think my imagination possibly started to play a roll in my thinking. But it does seem to me that quite a few of the early American machines had similarities to the Indian just with the fact that Aurora spread powerplants all over the place. As far as the Warwick / Connecticut reference in Greg's article............it seems to me that Oscar Hedstrom built his initial proto-types in a bicycle shop in Connecticut, prior to shipping them to Springfield for Hendee's approval. Maybe Warwick, built it's machine and just sold it in Springfield? All I know is that so far we have a lot more questions than answers!

Sometimes asking the right questions is nearly as good as having the answer. I think this Warwick connection is worth pursuing as it might open up new information about early Indian and period design trends. Your comment about a Hedstrom making his proto "in a bicycle shop in Connecticut" does ring a bell. And after all, you could throw a stone from Springfield and in would land in Connecticut. We don't even know how big of an outfit Warwick was at this point. Warwick might have been larger and did more things than we know.

[c.o.]

It's always good to know what other guys are interested in. From the amount of views, these things get read so there is interest, but very few join in.

In my confused overloaded brain, I want to say that once I saw a Warwick auto ad -- just the auto -- but I can't be sure if that is a real memory or imaginary and I'm confusing it with some other early car ad!

Another very interesting possible "first" about Pennington is the word "motorcycle" itself. I've got to dig into it and try to determine: 1) If he actually invented the word, or: 2) Was the first to apply it to a gasoline-powered 2-wheeler.

The fact that Pennington called his invention "The Motor Cycle" and formed "The Motor Cycle Company" leads me to suspect that there were no others and his was the one and only, the first, the original!

Right here in the great American Midwest the motorcycle may have originated!

I watched a portion "Glory Days The History of Early American Motorcycling" tonight. By the looks of it has to be 25 years old or better. It states that in 1897 one Eronomous (I know that has to be spelled wrong) Mueller of Decatur, Illinois was the first to get a patent for the "Motorcycle", but his vehicle was of the four wheel variety. It also states that in 1901 that one Robert Keating applied for a patent for "Motor-Bicycle" and that two months after that application Hiram Pierce applied for the first patent for a two-wheeled "Motorcycle". Now I didn't watch it all to see if the credits revealed sources for this info, but I thought it might be of some interest. Herb, if you've got info that shows Pennington used it first, that would be a significant note for the history books.

[c.o.]

Sometimes asking the right questions is nearly as good as having the answer. I think this Warwick connection is worth pursuing as it might open up new information about early Indian and period design trends. Your comment about a Hedstrom making his proto "in a bicycle shop in Connecticut" does ring a bell. And after all, you could throw a stone from Springfield and in would land in Connecticut. We don't even know how big of an outfit Warwick was at this point. Warwick might have been larger and did more things than we know.

I've sent out a few e-mails to folks that may know, but I haven't heard anything back on it yet. I still haven't got my time machine figured out to find any leads........it's all still a mystery.........

[HarleyCreation]

Here's another thought.

Not only were Warwick and Indian geographically close to each other, but they both went back to the pre-motorcycle bicycle 1890s era in some form or another.

Were there any earlier exchanges or mutually shared projects or job work between proto-Indian and Warwick in the bicycle era that has been missed or forgotten?

I'm at a disadvantage here because I know so little about Indian, early or otherwise. It's like a strange new continent far away that is enticing and alluring as I know that new discoveries await the first explorer who finds them! The hints and clues are all there...

[jurassic]

thank you mr. clymer

[c.o.]

Cool ad....have you ever seen a motorsickle one though? I'm having a tough time finding any info.

[jurassic]

03

[jurassic]

warwick

Cool ad....have you ever seen a motorsickle one though? I'm having a tough time finding any info.

hi cory ,i do have a motorcycle ad somewhere ,but cant find it.still looking. but it is the same company.i do remember that.