'03 Warwick

[c.o.]

Cool! I'll look forward to reading the Pennington article!

I was hoping to catch up to Pete at the Swapmeet on the West Coast this weekend, but the place was so darn busy that I only ran into a few people that I knew and he wasn't one of them! I just have a hunch that he may have some insight. I guess let further digging commence. It sure would be a good story to put together. It's too bad this question didn't occur to any of us earlier. I searched the archives on the forum and it appears that Andy Anderson passed on about three years ago. He would have been the man to ask.

[HarleyCreation]

I can envision a real cool story involving the original Indian design and various copycats in this pioneer era. I've been dropping bits and pieces into a dedicated file about this.

So then we don't know what happened to the existing Warwick motorcycle? Anyone know who owns it now?

In my files I found a 1903 Warwick ad. Get this: it was called the "Warwick Cycle and Automobile Co." which suggests they may have been trying to build and sell cars too. If true, that might help explain their quick demise. Over extending spelled doom to many early concerns, a casebook example being the Milwaukee Merkel.

Pennington's gasoline-powered 2-wheeler may have been conceived and possibly built as early as 1891. It will be interesting to put him up against other pioneer claims to see what kind of "first" Pennington really was and right here in America too!

[Tom Wilcock]

I have an old original photograph (if I can find it) of a gentleman who is the grandfather of a friend. On the back of it is written that he married a girl from Syracuse and moved to Aurora Illinois where he opened a sheet metal shop. He made the gas tanks, etc for the first Indians. Being close to the Aurora Automatic Machinery Company who supplied engines for the early Indians I wonder if he also made sheet metal parts for Thor and other early motorcycles. Perhaps it was Indian who copied other early motorcycles.

[c.o.]

I can envision a real cool story involving the original Indian design and various copycats in this pioneer era. I've been dropping bits and pieces into a dedicated file about this.

So then we don't know what happened to the existing Warwick motorcycle? Anyone know who owns it now?

In my files I found a 1903 Warwick ad. Get this: it was called the "Warwick Cycle and Automobile Co." which suggests they may have been trying to build and sell cars too. If true, that might help explain their quick demise. Over extending spelled doom to many early concerns, a casebook example being the Milwaukee Merkel.

Pennington's gasoline-powered 2-wheeler may have been conceived and possibly built as early as 1891. It will be interesting to put him up against other pioneer claims to see what kind of "first" Pennington really was and right here in America too!

I look forward to seeing something in print someday. I too am wondering where the Warwick ended up. It would be nice to see some decent pictures of one. As far as an early demise, too many irons in the fire is a likely reason. It seems as though more than a few outfits took a major gamble, just to see if an idea would "stick".

Now if you can prove that Pennington was cooking around on a motorsickle as early as 1891, then I guess history as far as American motorcycling is concerned will change for sure!

[c.o.]

I have an old original photograph (if I can find it) of a gentleman who is the grandfather of a friend. On the back of it is written that he married a girl from Syracuse and moved to Aurora Illinois where he opened a sheet metal shop. He made the gas tanks, etc for the first Indians. Being close to the Aurora Automatic Machinery Company who supplied engines for the early Indians I wonder if he also made sheet metal parts for Thor and other early motorcycles. Perhaps it was Indian who copied other early motorcycles.

Very interesting Tom....... I would be curious to hear more about this fellow. As far as Indian being the copy-cat.......I personally doubt it. It was a situation of Oscar Hedstrom having an idea and the Indian company not having the tooling to produce the end result. But as HC has already said, some of the clones such as the Warwick are probably much more rare than the Indian itself.

[HarleyCreation]

I have an old original photograph (if I can find it) of a gentleman who is the grandfather of a friend. On the back of it is written that he married a girl from Syracuse and moved to Aurora Illinois where he opened a sheet metal shop. He made the gas tanks, etc for the first Indians. Being close to the Aurora Automatic Machinery Company who supplied engines for the early Indians I wonder if he also made sheet metal parts for Thor and other early motorcycles. Perhaps it was Indian who copied other early motorcycles.

Tom,

That's very interesting stuff. Those are the sort of forgotten details that add to any story. Do you think maybe sometime you could dig out the old gent's name? It suggest that Aurora, to whom Indian was farming out work, was in turn farming out work to other shops nearby.

The relationship between Aurora, Indian, and the Indian clones needs to be worked out better. And because early advertising claims and accounts are often unreliable, sometimes wildly so (Harley-D's "1903" claims being one perfect example), we should keep an open mind about who copied whom.

[HarleyCreation]

I look forward to seeing something in print someday. I too am wondering where the Warwick ended up. It would be nice to see some decent pictures of one. As far as an early demise, too many irons in the fire is a likely reason. It seems as though more than a few outfits took a major gamble, just to see if an idea would "stick".

Now if you can prove that Pennington was cooking around on a motorsickle as early as 1891, then I guess history as far as American motorcycling is concerned will change for sure!

It's always good to know what other guys are interested in. From the amount of views, these things get read so there is interest, but very few join in.

In my confused overloaded brain, I want to say that once I saw a Warwick auto ad -- just the auto -- but I can't be sure if that is a real memory or imaginary and I'm confusing it with some other early car ad!

Another very interesting possible "first" about Pennington is the word "motorcycle" itself. I've got to dig into it and try to determine: 1) If he actually invented the word, or: 2) Was the first to apply it to a gasoline-powered 2-wheeler.

The fact that Pennington called his invention "The Motor Cycle" and formed "The Motor Cycle Company" leads me to suspect that there were no others and his was the one and only, the first, the original!

Right here in the great American Midwest the motorcycle may have originated!

[c.o.]

O.K. now that I've stated that I believe that Indian was in fact the originator and that all the other machines were clones, I thought I'd supply a little evidence as to why I think this. You fellas can have a read and decide for yourselves.

Here's a picture of the first known picture placed in the first Indian advertising pamphlet. This advertising was dated 1902.

[c.o.]

Wow I guess I'm a little computer challenged..........that was a bit of work to get a little 'ol pic posted. Here is a letter from George Hendee regarding their new models for '02. Indians claimed starting date is '01 of which three proto-types were produced. Actual production did not occur until '02. I'll get more evidence on this board here in a minute..........

[c.o.]

Here's a pic of what is called an '03-'04 Thor. The frame castings were the same as Indian, but apparently the frames themselves were different.

[c.o.]

O.K. now here's the real revelation. I had forgotten about reading this a year or two ago. Greg Walter has an article on the internet regarding the history of Thor.

Quote:

The History of the Thor Motorcycle Company

By Greg Walter

The Aurora Machine and Tool Company started as a machine shop in 1886. It provided forging and machine parts for the then burgeoning bicycle industry. This was a time when many fortunes were to be made in the bicycle industry. Many bike manufacturers set up shop. They bought their castings, forgings and parts like hubs and coaster brakes from Aurora. They would then braze together, assemble, paint, and market their product. I have yet to see a pre-motorcycle parts catalogue - however by 1903 (the year of my earliest literature) they had a large line of parts including 10 different rear hubs, 5 different front hubs, racing hubs, spokes, nipples, handlebars, special spoke washers to be used with wooden rims and a large number of patents were listed.

Enter Indian-

Some time about 1899 Oscar Hedstrom built his first motorcycle. It was a tandem motorcycle used to pace bicycle races. The front person steered; the back person ran the motor and made all necessary adjustments to keep it running (hopefully at the right speed!). No one is sure where that first motor came from. Many have said it was very similar to the French made De Dion motor. Hedstrom had no foundry to work from so it is probable that the castings were provided by some unknown machine shop making their own version of a De Dion or another possibility was that Hedstrom made the pattern himself and used the foundry at Warwick Motorcycle in Connecticut. Presumably Hedstrom refined the design over the original De Dion motor because his machine was notably superior to anything else available. In 1901 he joined forces with George Hendee and formed the Indian Moto Cycle Company. During that year three prototype machines were built. We know from good documentation that in the fall of 1901 one of these prototype Indians was shipped to the Aurora factory be studied by them. Oscar Hedstrom went along to render technical assistance. Why Aurora? Apparently they had been providing Hendee with castings for his Silver King and Silver Queen bicycles.

After several months' work, the Aurora Company produced a new motor of Hendee's design. These motors differed from the prototype most notably in the use of three cylinder studs instead of the four (ala De Dion). Also some ribs were added to strengthen the engine case. Aurora struck a bargain with the fledgling Indian Company. Aurora would build these engines for Indian but would be free to sell additional motors to other companies providing that a royalty was paid. Also it was stipulated that Aurora would not build motorcycles and compete with Indian. I have yet to see the original contract so the exact wording of the agreement is still unknown to me.

There were 137 Indians produced in 1902. All of the motors were built by Aurora, and as Indian had no foundry and limited production capabilities probably most of the forgings, castings and machined parts. George Hendee was previously in the bicycle manufacturing business and so it is assumed that Indian brazed together their own frames, manufactured their own fenders and tanks did their own painting and assembly. It is known that Indian had patents for the Chain Adjuster, "Muffler For Internal Combustion Engines", "Valve For Internal Combustion Engines", Controlling Mechanism For Internal Combustion Engines", Carburetor, and "Fuel or other reservoir (?)". So presumably Indian used their own rear hubs, not Aurora's hubs. However, early Indian literature says they used a New Departure hub. It is unknown if Aurora made or sold any motors in 1902 other than the 137 to Indian. It is possible that that was all they could produce, as a reference found in the Indian archives mentions how shipments were often unreliable and sporadic.

In 1903 Aurora founded the Thor Moto Cycle and Bicycle Company. Or at least they produced a catalogue showing Thor Moto Cycle parts and components. In their catalogue every part needed to produce a motorcycle was listed for sale. A picture carefully worded as a "motorcycle assembled from Thor components" was shown. Interesting that they might have their own tank decal if they were only selling components for other companies! No frame was offered for sale but all of the forgings could be purchased to assemble your own. In 1903 trade magazine ads were seen of companies that would sell you Thor motorcycles built from components. It is here that we mark the beginning of the Thor Motorcycle Company. At about this time at least half a dozen other companies sprang up all producing similar machines built from similar components all looking near identical to the 1902 Indian and 1903 Thor.

What was the difference between a Thor, a Thor clone and an Indian? Well, all the forgings may have been the same however the frames were all built using different jigs and possibly different dimensions. It is near impossible for us to sort this out now because some of the dozen or so 1902 Indians that we know about have some wrong components. The surviving 1903-05 Thors are even more dubious. Some clones have been restored to be Thors. Some Thors have Indian component on them. One "early Thor" uses a skip tooth roller chain (versus Indian block chain) has a heavier gauge frame tube, uses a Thor rear hub and both the carb and motor say Thor instead of Indian. Indian would often brag that they did something secret to their motors that made them superior to Thors but most experts doubt this. Another difference between the two machines can be found in the right-sided spark advance. The Indian had a link arrangement coming out of the handlebar, the Thor had a sort of rack and gear arrangement at the headstock. Thor also had a kill switch on the engine case that triggered when the spark was completely retarded - Indian motors did not. It is said that in 1905 half the motorcycles seen at a trade show were Thor clones. Included in the list are Thor-bred, Reading Standard, Merkle, Apache, Raycycle, Manson and in years later Sears and Torpedo.

From what we can see Thor did not change their design from 1903-1905. In a 1908 parts book they show a picture of the original 1903 design and call it a 1903-05. They also show a different Model for 1906-07, which uses the same design with numerous changes. The same model was updated in 1908 and sold as a model "7". This same design was until early 1909.

Indian literature states that they had their own in house foundry in 1906. In 1908 Thor opened there own dealerships advertised completed machines and produced their first real sales literature. Thus officially ending any ties. In addition to the previous model 7 an entire line of new machines with choice of either battery or magneto ignition were now available. Thor offered chain drive or belt drive. One new design was a unique appearing twin with automatic intake valves. The twin had the rear cylinder straight up and the front cylinder angled forward (as Ducatis were later famous for). By all accounts it ran rather well which is interesting in the light that both Indian and Harley had difficulties with automatic intake twins.

:End-Quote

When I re-read this last night, the mention of Warwick brought about a little excitement. If in fact Oscar Hedstrom farmed out his proto-type casting work to Warwick prior to approaching Aurora, then this may be why Warwick eventually built a bike in '03. But we still don't know how many were made or for how long. I'm sure somebody does though. I've been struggling with the fact that if we can't put this together..........who's going to be able to 50 years from now?

The rest of the article if anyone is interested is at ..........

http://209.204.252.20/thorhistory.htm

[HarleyCreation]

Interesting article.

Yes, the Warwick name does jump out, i.e:

"....used the foundry at Warwick Motorcycle in Connecticut."

But the Warwick Cycle Company was at Springfield, Mass. and this says Connecticut.

Hmmm.....

Two different firms with the same name?

He really meant Mass.?

Or the Warwick people owned more than one plant at different locations?

[HarleyCreation]

Something else:

It is said that in 1905 half the motorcycles seen at a trade show were Thor clones. Included in the list are Thor-bred, Reading Standard, Merkle, Apache, Raycycle, Manson and in years later Sears and Torpedo.

Which "Merkle" is he talking about here? Certainly not the Joe Merkel Merkel, the Milwaukee Merkel, that was it's own machine and whom Harley seems to have outright copied.

Or was there a short-lived "Merkle" motorcycle?

Offhand I don't remember that near-same name, does anyone?

I always love it when an author states: "it is said."

By whom? When? Where?

[c.o.]

I can't recall another Merkel make although they were produced in more places than Milwaukee. I believe Pottstown, PA and Middletown, OH were on the list as well. I don't see a correlation between Merkel and Indian or Thor at all, while Merkel's influence on Harley-Davidson is quite obvious. It seems as though Greg may have or has access to a large literature collection. It is always nice to see the facts to back up the story though. I think when one writes such abstract historical accounts that possibly the thought of anyone questioning the story does not occur to the writer...........just a thought.

[c.o.]

I found an interesting site.........

http://www.ozebook.com/w.htm

If one clicks on W and finds Warwick, there are two listings. One is for the U.K. and one is from the U.S. The U.S. version is dated 1903 only and and the U.K. version is 1909-1915. The interesting part that I noted was that it indicates that the U.S. Warwick was made by PMC. Now PMC is listed as a U.K. bike 1908-1915. Now when you scroll up to Pennington it says U.K. 1897. But when you click on it you get a screen that shows the U.S. with a date of 1894. You get a pretty good write-up on the man. Now it seems to me that when Pennington left the U.S. for England he built tricycles. When you click on PMC you get a tricycle. Now am I way out of whack to think that there could be some relation?