Best Triumph (Brit) USA Book?

[AFJ]

Originally posted by AdminGuy
Hi Al, Would TRI Corp. eastern US) would have been Roy Burke?

I think export models were bound for the USA. General export models went to common wealth countries. Is that correct?

Triumph Corp. (Tri-Cor) was in Baltimore from 1951 when it was set up by Triumph to handle the eastern US market until 1975. No connection to Burke in London, Ontario, Canada.

I do not think that one can narrowly classify "Export" model Triumphs as being made for the US market only. As mentioned in my last post, there were often significant differences in Triumphs made for the Eastern US and Western US markets and year-to-year variations in finish and equipment within those markets - and, of course, the various retrofit or "beauty kits" made to suit local market requirements.
Canadian market Triumphs were not necessarily "General Export"models either and were apparently ordered, in a number of cases, with different equipment from what appears in catalogs or parts lists. Thus we find US Bonnevilles in the late 1960s with painted and lined mudguards (similar to the home models) while Canadian market Bonnevilles sported stainless polished mudguards. And Bonnevilles for the Quebec market seem to have had folding footpegs as well!
T100C models in Eastern Canada had wide ratio gear boxes and alloy mudguards. General specification (and the T100C was an Export model not marketed in UK until late '67) was for Stainless polished guards.
The numbers I quoted for US builds in 1967 did not include Canadian orders.
Al

[AdminGuy]

WOW! This leeds me to believe that the SS guards on my 68T100R are correct. Guys have been telling me for years that they are wrong and should be painted. So I now feel that it is a Canadian bike and am very happy not to change the stainless fenders/guards. Thanks! Much appreciated.

I was thinking Roy from Oregon.

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by AFJ


For full year-by-year import figures your Federal Dept. of Commerce or your motorcycle industry association would be the accurate sources. Brooke and Gaylin "Triumph in America" do give some figures on sales as they seem important to the commercial history and the actual total production can be estimated from serial numbering system, which is given in detail.

For example, the 1970 sales of Triumphs in the US were around 30,000 bikes (in a market where more could have been sold if they had been available) and serial number records indicate a total production of about 35,700 Triumphs of all sizes from 250cc to 750cc. 1968 (pre-Trident and pre-T25) production had been just under 29,000 twins.

In 1969, as a comparison, Honda in the US sold over 30,000 CB750 Fours. By 1970 Honda had nearly 50% of the total motorcycle market followed by Yamaha at around 30%, followed by suzuki, Kawasaki and BSA/Triumph (together) in 5th spot at 6.9%

The book gives some interesting partial figures for US motorcycle imports. In 1960, sales of all motorcycles in the US were less than 60,000; in 1965, 609,000 motorcycles scooters and mopeds were imported to the US. 465,000 of these were Japanese, 69,974 were Italian, 33,406 were of British origin.

In 1963, Triumph sold 6,300 new motorcycles in the US, by 1967 the official ordered build program of Triumphs for the US market was 28,700 units (18,200 for the Eastern market, 10,500 for the western market.

Broken down by distributor the build orders were as follows:

Johnson Motors in California: T120R - 2100; TR6R -1600; TR6C -2100; T120TT - 500; T100R-1,300; T100C -1200; T20M- 1700

Triumph Corp. (Eastern US): T120R - 8800; TR6R - 3900; TR6C - 700; T120TT - 400; T100R - 2,000; T100C - 1400; T20M - 1,000

Note that there were often differences in specification between Eastern and Western specification Triumphs at this time.

The 1967 US order was 26,000 Triumph twins; serial number records indicate a 1967 actual build of 28,100 Triumph twins.

Hope these figures are of some interest.

Al Johnson

Those numbers are very interesting. Thanks!

I wasn't aware that the jump in U.S. motorcycle sales between 1960 and 1965 was that HUGE but it sure was. I'm still back in the late 1940s early 50s when Harley was complaining about the "dumping" of English bikes on the American market. But that couldn't have been anything like the "Japanese Invasion" in absolute numbers. The Triumph dealer whom I interviewed became a Honda dealer in 1964 you might say by accident. He said that guys laughed at the Hondas initially, but that changed fast.

[AFJ]

Originally posted by HarleyCreation


Those numbers are very interesting. Thanks!

I wasn't aware that the jump in U.S. motorcycle sales between 1960 and 1965 was that HUGE but it sure was. I'm still back in the late 1940s early 50s when Harley was complaining about the "dumping" of English bikes on the American market. But that couldn't have been anything like the "Japanese Invasion" in absolute numbers. The Triumph dealer whom I interviewed became a Honda dealer in 1964 you might say by accident. He said that guys laughed at the Hondas initially, but that changed fast.

In 1960, Edward Turner, then head of the BSA Automotive division which included BSA, Triumph, Ariel, Sunbeam and New Hudson motorcycles and Daimler cars, went on a tour of the Japanese motorcycle industry. His report in September of that year to the BSA Group board and stated that Japan was producing 500,000 motorcycles a year with Honda making about 250,000 and 5 other companies producing more than 25,000 units per year. The entire British motorcycle industry only produced 140,000 motorcycles per year. He pointed out that the British motorcycle industry had never ever made 1,000 units of any single product in a week on a consistent basis, but that many factories in Japan were making 1,000 motorcycles of a single model in a single day.
Since wages were so much lower in Japan, he proposed that the only way for the BSA Group to survive in world motorcycle markets and protect their exports, which were 49% of Triumph production and 35% of BSA production, was to establish the manufacture of British motorcycles in Japan.
This was never done by Triumph/BSA but AMC (AJS/Matchless/Norton/F-B/James) did attempt to survive by establishing a distribution company to import Suzuki motorcycles to Britain.

I believe Harley-Davidson complained about Norton motorcycles in the US as early as 1935 and attempted to have the AMA ban the Norton International from Class C racing after the Jacksonville 200 mile race of that year - when George Pepper's Norton finished 3rd.

Al Johnson

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by AFJ


In 1960, Edward Turner, then head of the BSA Automotive division which included BSA, Triumph, Ariel, Sunbeam and New Hudson motorcycles and Daimler cars, went on a tour of the Japanese motorcycle industry. His report in September of that year to the BSA Group board and stated that Japan was producing 500,000 motorcycles a year with Honda making about 250,000 and 5 other companies producing more than 25,000 units per year. The entire British motorcycle industry only produced 140,000 motorcycles per year. He pointed out that the British motorcycle industry had never ever made 1,000 units of any single product in a week on a consistent basis, but that many factories in Japan were making 1,000 motorcycles of a single model in a single day.
Since wages were so much lower in Japan, he proposed that the only way for the BSA Group to survive in world motorcycle markets and protect their exports, which were 49% of Triumph production and 35% of BSA production, was to establish the manufacture of British motorcycles in Japan.
This was never done by Triumph/BSA but AMC (AJS/Matchless/Norton/F-B/James) did attempt to survive by establishing a distribution company to import Suzuki motorcycles to Britain.

I believe Harley-Davidson complained about Norton motorcycles in the US as early as 1935 and attempted to have the AMA ban the Norton International from Class C racing after the Jacksonville 200 mile race of that year - when George Pepper's Norton finished 3rd.

Al Johnson

That is VERY interesting! If the English had teamed up with the Japanese things might have turned out differently. But I imagine it was taken to be un-patriotic or something. In the end the English lost everything anyway....

A Norton winning in the 1930s rings a bell and I might have an old mag clipping about it. I didn't know Harley may have tried an AMA ban, but that sounds like something they might have tried. There was a very strong attitude about English bikes in Milwaukee that really blew up after the war.

Have you ever heard of Walt Fulton? He was the guy who the old Triumph dealer I talked to got his franchise from. He had something to do with Mustang too.

This old dealer met Turner at Daytona and had a few things to say about how the Brits did things contrasted to Harley's way and then Japan's way. Interesting stuff.

PS: Can anyone comment on how good this book is: "What Ever Happened to the British Motorcycle Industry?" by Bert Hopwood.

The reprint edition of that book is reasonably priced.

[AFJ]

Walt Fulton appears in 2 pictures in the "Triumph in America" which states that he raced Triumphs at Daytona 5 times with the best placing a 6th in 1955. He also won the Catalina GP. He was also a field representative for TriCor, in the western part of their territory. Prior to the Triumph job he had worked at George Butler's Triumph shop in San Bernardino, CA and then been a sales rep. for Mustang motorcycles.

Hopwood's book is worth a read but it does not cover the American side like the other books I mentioned but concentrates on the personalities and the various designs (many his) which were not adopted. For a better book on the British industry and its reasons for failure I would suggest Neale Shilton's "A Million Miles Ago" He was a supersalesman for Triumph, Norton and finally BMW in the UK and overseas markets for many years and draws some interesting observations on the reasons for the British collapse.

A Norton International, ridden by Clark Trumbull of Washington, DC was 2nd in the first Daytona 200 in 1937. A 500 cc HRD-Vincent TT bike was 4th in the 1939 Daytona. It was ridden by Bryan Sparks of Windsor, Ontario, Canada. The 1941 Daytona was won by Billy Mathews of Hamilton, Ontario, Canada on a Norton International. In 1939, Bryan's brother, Robert Sparks, (also from Windsor) riding a Norton International, won the 100 mile National US championship race at Langhorne, PA - the first Canadian to win an US National and the first British motorcycle to win a US National race. Robert Sparks also set a new half-mile track record at the Columbus, Ohio 1/2 mile that year on the same Norton.

Al Johnson

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by AFJ
Walt Fulton appears in 2 pictures in the "Triumph in America" which states that he raced Triumphs at Daytona 5 times with the best placing a 6th in 1955. He also won the Catalina GP. He was also a field representative for TriCor, in the western part of their territory. Prior to the Triumph job he had worked at George Butler's Triumph shop in San Bernardino, CA and then been a sales rep. for Mustang motorcycles.

Hopwood's book is worth a read but it does not cover the American side like the other books I mentioned but concentrates on the personalities and the various designs (many his) which were not adopted. For a better book on the British industry and its reasons for failure I would suggest Neale Shilton's "A Million Miles Ago" He was a supersalesman for Triumph, Norton and finally BMW in the UK and overseas markets for many years and draws some interesting observations on the reasons for the British collapse.

A Norton International, ridden by Clark Trumbull of Washington, DC was 2nd in the first Daytona 200 in 1937. A 500 cc HRD-Vincent TT bike was 4th in the 1939 Daytona. It was ridden by Bryan Sparks of Windsor, Ontario, Canada. The 1941 Daytona was won by Billy Mathews of Hamilton, Ontario, Canada on a Norton International. In 1939, Bryan's brother, Robert Sparks, (also from Windsor) riding a Norton International, won the 100 mile National US championship race at Langhorne, PA - the first Canadian to win an US National and the first British motorcycle to win a US National race. Robert Sparks also set a new half-mile track record at the Columbus, Ohio 1/2 mile that year on the same Norton.

Al Johnson

That is good stuff!

I'm sure that I have some of those early Daytona articles and will have to dig them out.

The BIGGER picture is becoming clear. Those late 1930s Daytona & Langhorne "wins" by Brit bikes must have scared the living crap out of Harley and Indian too! But then the war came along and Harley did its patriotic WLA duty (and Indian too) never dreaming that Uncle Sam would betray them after the war was won and that evil days would soon be on the horizon.

The horror of it!

I never heard of that "A Million Miles Ago" book and will look it up.

I hope it isn't a million dollars!

Thanks for the Walt Fulton info. I'm trying to learn more from the dealer how he obtained his Triumph franchise. It's a little bit like something out of the Sopranos!

Edit: I shouldn't have said it: $288.73 on the used book market!

[HarleyCreation]

Thunderbird

This gets more and more interesting.

I notice that on Ian Chadwick's Triumph Time Line that in 1947:

"Edward Turner tours California, visiting film sets in Hollywood and rubbing shoulders with film stars."

Then in 1949:

"650cc Thunderbird 6T (designed by Turner but made into a workable machine by his drawing-board guru, Jack Wickes) was launched on Sept. 20 with three models racing 500 miles at 90mph (800km at 145kph) for a demonstration at Montlhery. Although basically a revamped, bored-out Speed Twin, 6T is designed to satisfy export (mostly American) market, offered as capable of a full 161 kmh/100 mph."

Triumph's strategy must have worked because before long Harley would be crying about "foreign" bikes cutting into their sales with the biggest initial hurt being on the West Coast.

The name itself "Thunderbird" was a great marketing tool, evoking the nearly universal Native American god of flight and power "Animikii" (Ojibwe).

Before long Hollywood would put Brando on a Triumph Thunderbird in "The Wild One," which, incidently, is a pretty good movie IMHO which holds up pretty well even today. Can't say that about most of the 60s biker flicks.

PS: Another website says that Triumph "managing director" Edward Turner made his first U.S. visit in 1939.

[Cass]

Triumph Books?

I know you won't be going to the Oley meet or the Triumph Come Home Rally in PA? But I could search out the books you are looking for , as I know David Gaylin personnely & if he has some books at a reasonible price I could give you the info if you give me your e-mail off the bulleten board.Always willing to help a Brit. enthueseist!
Cass

[HarleyCreation]

Re: Triumph Books?

Originally posted by Cass
I know you won't be going to the Oley meet or the Triumph Come Home Rally in PA? But I could search out the books you are looking for , as I know David Gaylin personnely & if he has some books at a reasonible price I could give you the info if you give me your e-mail off the bulleten board.Always willing to help a Brit. enthueseist!
Cass

No, I won't be attending those. It's nice of you to offer looking for these books, but I'd rather not venture there. I know a guy who has all these books and first I want to look them over to see what they contain and how useful they are.

It's true that I'm becoming more interested in Brit bikes.....

Thanks!

[Cass]

Triumph book?

Are you still looking for the Triumph Restoration Book by David Gaylin ? I will be at the Triumph Come Home Rally this weekend & David is always there. If he has any copies at a descent price would you want me to get one for you, then I could mail it to you.
Let me know before Thursday.
Cass
PS Set a Dollar limit.