Winchester motorcycle?

[AdminGuy]

The letter from Paul Edwards in the Winter 2002 issue "AMCA On-line Bulletin Board" has just come to my attention. The issue was tucked into a slot of my brief case and I've just recently re-discovered it. This is a great opportunity for me to seek the assistance of the membership. Years ago when Roger Hull was at the helm of Road Rider Magazine he delayed the publishing of an article about all the known American made motorcycles until it would coincide with an anniversary issue of that magazine. It was the same issue in which the story of George Wymann's 1903 transcontintal adventure appeared. Roger advised me that he wanted his researchers to be absolutely certain that their data was correct and afforded extra time to get it right. I think I recall that there were over 200 brands represented in the list. Many years later while attending the Industry Motorcycle Trade Show (Cincinnati, Ohio but now moved to Indianapolis, Indiana) I encountered a metal (reproduction) sign with Winchester brand motorcycle as the feature. My own feeble research resulted in my learning it had nothing to do with the vast Winchester brand products line, the more famous of which were fire arms, so at that point I was stuck. Somehow I got a clue that the brand was produced in Brockton, Mass. But could never back it up. Does anyone have a finite answer on the history of Winchester motorcycle(s). If anyone can be sure that there was more than just one produced, that there really was a production run and it was American made, then that brand could be added to the list of American made motorcycles. Awaiting one of our experts to step up. Thank you.

Sincerely,
Mike Vancil
AMCA member

[AdminGuy]

I'm no expert. Steven Wrights book - The American M/C 1869-1914. Gives brief mention and makes me sound knowledgable. It's a great book- buy it.

Eagle Motor works was purchased by supplier -American MotorCo. (M.M.)in 1912. Spacke motors in a 12 , 9 and 6 hp. 1913 sales declined but after market sales by Haverford, Peerless, Arrow, and Winchester continued to rebadge.

It cont. but this is the only mention. Anyone else have more info?

[AdminGuy]

Winchester metal sign.

[motorheadmike]

Andy anderson reconstructed a 1901 25 years ago. Dont know what happoned to lt. It looked like a rebadged thor. Then he thought it was a real one. Andy was a very interesting man. I miss him...

[exeric]

I'm a bit surprised to see this come up again as it was talked about extensively when a Winchester badged motorcycle was being auctioned a few years ago. I believe the seller was asking $800,000.00, yes, $800K. The bike was a circa 1909 Marsh-Metz single with the Winchester logo font on the tank. The seller was trying to imply a connection to the gun maker.

[BPK!!]

Andy made, if I remember correctly a " Warrick", replica, and presently at the Barber Museum, or at least was purchased by Geo some years back..BPK!!

[Scooter Guy]

The Winchester motorcycles are back up for auction: scheduled for March 2015 at a James D. Julia Auction Co. Firearms auction.

Scroll about 3/4 of the way down this page:

http://http://jamesdjulia.com/373_shs/

[DanM]

Also: http://www.gizmag.com/winchester-mot...-return/35899/

[exeric]

You have to hand it to whoever owns those bikes, they are persistent. If I had 1/2 million bucks to spend on a vintage motorcycle, it damn sure wouldn't be a M-M single. But, this is what creative marketing is all about and there may very well be a whale sized sucker out there willing to buy one of the two. I have yet to see any evidence that these bikes are anything but a re-badged M-M, with no evidence of a link to the gun maker.

[rwm]

it's all just advertising for the auctioneer. first the one who claims he got half a mill each for the pair and second for the one to relist a million dollars worth of bikes. follow a trail of bs and you'll find an auctioneer not a bull!

[AFJ]

You have to hand it to whoever owns those bikes, they are persistent. If I had 1/2 million bucks to spend on a vintage motorcycle, it damn sure wouldn't be a M-M single. But, this is what creative marketing is all about and there may very well be a whale sized sucker out there willing to buy one of the two. I have yet to see any evidence that these bikes are anything but a re-badged M-M, with no evidence of a link to the gun maker.

See page 11 of the March/April, 2015 issue of "The Antique Motorcycle" for a full page advertisement on the auction of two W--------R motorcycles at a firearms auction March 15-17 in Fairfield, Maine.

[exeric]

I saw that ad, and just re-read it and there still isn't a shred of proof that there is any connection to the Winchester firearms company. Like I've said, M-Ms were rebadged with many different names but I have never seen, or read of a Winchester M-M. I mean, I could paint 'Campbell's Soup' on a M-M tank, and even come up with a story to go with it

[sirhrmechanic]

Note the San Francisco and Los Angeles locations on the neck badge. That's a long way from New Haven where the company's factories were.

BUT... one must remember that Sara Lockwood Pardee (later Sarah Winchester and builder of the Winchester mystery house) lived much of her life in California. As did other Winchester relatives. It is very easy to assume that some distant relative in the Winchester family decided to capitalize on the name and offer a motorcycle. After all, ranchers were familiar with the brand... and it was one of the most trusted names in America when it came to quality and innovation. AND one must remember that you could put your own name on a non-gun product with impunity... though not the logo. But the neck badge is not an obvious Winchester logo, either.

The tank painting IS a Winchester logo. But that looks kind of tenuous to me... as they were not using that logo on products at that point... just on advertising and catalogs. I'd want to see some original paint to ensure that it's not a contrivance. Also, if you look at the 1909 catalog, there are significant differences between the tank logo and the early Winchester script. Compare the 1908 catalog and the tank.






Even this 1909 ad shows a much different face from the tank. Subtle, yes. But very noticeable.



The tank logo looks much more like the 1990 Winchester logo with its much fatter script.



It's some great marketing for the bike for sure. And could very well be connected with the firearms company through a relative or an offshoot. But without the name "New Haven" on the neck badge, I'd be very skeptical without some extremely good provenance, old ads, old factory papers, photos, etc.

Finally, I checked my copy of Harold F. Williamson's exhaustive history of the company "Winchester: The Gun that Won the West" (1952 Combat Forces Press/AUSA Publications). In it Williamson details the early company history including 'spinoff' products and relationships with companies like Singer. There is no mention of a motorcycle. Nor is there any mention of operations in Los Angeles and San Francisco during that timeperiod.

Again, large prices demand large historical provenance. And I'm not sold at this point.

Cheers,

Sirhr

[exeric]

Very good points Sirhr. I believe this is the value of the AMCA, and should be the repository for antique motorcycle knowledge. Examples like this Winchester can be civilly vetted, and discussed and the lump of knowledge can grow. I have nothing against these Winchesters, and honestly wish they are real; but true research, and verifiable proof is what makes our old motorcycles so precious, and interesting.

[Scott Parker]

Should I or should I not get this book for my kids ? http://www.amazon.com/Willy-Winchest.../dp/1427695326