judging frustration

[Sargehere]

coil polarity may make a difference on these 6 volt coils but the 12 volt 2.8 ohm coils are not marked and are wired opposite between sporty and big twin[IMG]http://[/IMG]

Duffy, we're turning this into a two-subject thread. Not polite. Check my thread on these repro coils over on CAIMag forum for a more detailed explanation of the electrical theory. On your question, I think the technology's probably just gotten better in all these years, and we're comparing very low-volume, almost "hand-thrown" repop coils made in Taiwan, copying only what they see without having to understand it, with modern Harley products that benefited from decades of development. I have no idea what may go on inside of them.
Here: http://www.caimag.com/forum/showthre...uot-coils-Fail

[Carl Olsen]

Tom,
Where do you think information is found, I get it from original unmolested bikes, and there are plenty out there to choose from and they are not getting molested or restored. The members that restore motorcycles usually know enough not to restore a piece of history or are informed to take the right path on these machines. What is wrong with taking a pile of parts and making a factory correct bike out of it, we have been doing it successfully for years and enjoy getting them judged by our peers. The history is out there and readily available, a good way of obtaining it is by participating in the judging and doing your research through networking with other members. I see no problem with restoring an original part that has been repainted or refinished several times to the original factory finish to recapture it's history. The AMCA judging system is set up so that each bike starts out at 100 points and points are deducted using guidelines to get the end result of the quality of the restoration, not one bike judged against another to get the biggest trophy as you allude. You should get involved in the process so you can better understand the system, try being an apprentice on a team and be part of the solution instead of part the problem. Sure it is not perfect, but only us volunteers can make it better and better it will be.
Carl

[duffeycycles]

coil polarity may make a difference on these 6 volt coils but the 12 volt 2.8 ohm coils are not marked and are wired opposite between sporty and big twin[IMG]http://[/IMG]

[T. Cotten]

that's why it's called history

That's true in most way, Rob,

But is it the mandate of the AMCA to do the trashing?

The system does not preserve History when the sum effect of the "restoration" rules is that each piece is molested for little more than the sake of appearance.
The system does not promote vintage motorcycling by createing a culture where the machines become too expensive to ride by the common man.

As Carl says, it isn't rocket science.
It is not science at all.
Where's the data?

Science is not about winning trophys, or fooling the judges, or building golden calves.
Its about collecting knowledge, and preserving it for the common good.

The opportunity that has been squandered for a half of a century is staggering.

....Cotten
#776

[rwm]

Folks,
Far more History is trashed than saved.

...Cotten

that's why it's called history

[Sargehere]

Any chance of you revealing your source?

Fran Blake's cousin. An impeccable source of Harley factoids. No one is better. He called me and we jawed for an hour. That was only the skin off the top, barely scratched the surface, but I wasn't takin' notes. Sorry, Chris!

Oh, & we also discussed ignition coil polarity as it relates to a pair of electrical theories: the electron theory and the theory of thermionic emission, in automotive wasted spark ignition. (AKA: Why do Tedd's V-Twin repro coils so often fail prematurely?) A: Basically, they fail because they're wired backwards from OEM Harley 6v coils (1930-47 and 48-64), and yes, the locations of the "+" and "-" terminals do matter.)

And after we got off the phone, I did a little internet research and got the kerrect terminology:

Refs:
http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/ignition/ig104.htm
http://www.guy.weatherall.dsl.pipex.com/ht/coil.htm
http://firetrucksandequipment.tpub.c...-14P-1_545.htm

Seem to all agree: Tedds' coils fail because polarity does matter, and backwiring leads to eventual sparkplug failure. Yup.

[Chris Haynes]

Okay, before getting the lore of WLCs and ELCs all wadded up and tangled in fantasy, here are some researched facts that were made known to me, today:.

Any chance of you revealing your source?

[T. Cotten]

Folks,

Without a sanctioned and reviewable database, that assimilates every new "judgement" as acquired knowledge rather than counting faults, any AMCA award might as well be "People's Choice".

Anecdotal judging doesn't cut it anymore: Far more History is trashed than saved.

...Cotten

[Carl Olsen]

D.J.,
You have some come up with some great ideas to enhance the history of our great machines and the judging committee will talk this over in the future. I am trying to get more members involved in the judging field in order to have as many people learn as much as possible about our machines. I have been recruiting owners of bikes entered in judging and spectators on the field to help with the tasks involved with judging to help them understand the system and garner more information on bikes they are interested in. You cannot judge your own bike, but you can help judge others like it, you have the opportunity to learn from expert judges about bikes that you are interested in purchasing, future restoration projects, or just to satisfy a yearning interest. This is not rocket science, but another way to enjoy our machines and experience the joys of this great hobby that each of us have grown to love and respect. To you owners out there take lots of detail shots when you are assembling your bikes and start a blog showing your work to share with others so we can learn more from each other. Lot of you follow Matt's blog already and I personally have seen increased quality in judged bikes because of it, but not everybody is working on knucks and pans, so let's all join together and share as much information with each other as we can. IT'S ALL ABOUT OLD BIKES
Carl Olsen

[Sargehere]

I thought about commenting on that, too, Chris. I think the stories of the WWII Harley ELCs and the order of WLCs equipped with LH Goulding sidecars got crossed, somewhere along the line. There WAS an order of (400?) specially-equipped WLCs delivered to Canada with specially-ordered Goulding Litecars fairly early in the war.

Okay, before getting the lore of WLCs and ELCs all wadded up and tangled in fantasy, here are some researched facts that were made known to me, today:
There were 170 Goulding Litecars provided under contract to the Canadian Military under contract, early in WWII.

Those 170 were provided for Indian Model 640s, not Harley-Davidsons. Among the 44 ELCs provided, only a few had Harley sidecars.

There were a lot of photos taken and broadcast of special Canadian-equpped Harleys during the war, but most of them, like the sidecar WLA/WLCs, were photos of prototypes built by H-D, in which Canada showed no interest.

The sidecars that were provided were right-hand sidecars, for use in Canada, only, and not for export when their troops deployed, as to the Mother Country (GB) that drives on the left. So, simply, all the sidecar WLAs & WLCs were factory demonstrators, you could call them and never resulted in Canadian gov't contracts.

[Knotthed]

As Kevin said, the idea of documenting Winners Circle bikes has been around for a long time. It has not been abandoned, but requires considerable effort plus volunteers. Matt Olsen put together a list of what pictures might be required, but it was hard to organise the bikes/photographers to be in the same place at the same time. I produced a video of a Winners Circle 1936 Harley VLH being judged, which is now posted on the Virtual Library. It took about two days photography and two days editing to produce, costing about $1000 and took $30 in commercial sales, so is not for the faint hearted.

We don't keep all the judging info in our heads to try to catch out owners. My VL book has been through five editions this last 20 years, and some of the info in the early versions has been superseded, as well as new items included. Don't forget Jerry Hatfield's work on the Indians, and the many scarce original brochures already loaded onto the Virtual Library by George Yarocki, Bruce Linsday, Dr Cleveland and other worthy AMCA donors.

Steve,

I applaud you and others and I have patronized the likes of Yarocki, Linsday and Hatfield. I am very thankful for their work. I will have to check out your video, although not of great interest to me at this point, due to my current project being of the other brand.

First, let me say that I think it would be wise to put the photo requirements on the owner, the owner is the one that wants to judge/document his bike so he should take an active role in that. He should know alot about his bike as it is in his posession most of the time. There could be a defined set of pictures required to accomplish this.

As I think about your comments about your video and Matt's pictures, I envision the ultimate in documenting winners circle machines being something similar to google street view. Here is how it could work, you park the bike in a designated spot within the working envelope of machine with an automated camera that can circle and hover around the machine capturing every aspect of the machine in high definition video or stills and then it would create an electronic 3D version of the machine that could be viewed interactively later on. If you could insert arrows and comments and text then you could identify the intricacies of the machine.........

This is probably not that far fetched with today's technology. Look at the Metrology world of 3D scanners and laser measuring equipement coupled with video/photo. Put the bike in, turn it on and sit back and relax.

Now that would be one awesome virtual library! Just like you were standing in front of the bike at a meet, except not as cool cuz your not at a meet.

[Sargehere]

All Knucklehead and UL sidecar wheels interchange with the motorcycle.

I thought about commenting on that, too, Chris. I think the stories of the WWII Harley ELCs and the order of WLCs equipped with LH Goulding sidecars got crossed, somewhere along the line. There WAS an order of (400?) specially-equipped WLCs delivered to Canada with specially-ordered Goulding Litecars fairly early in the war.

That they might have had special axles and star hub wheels would only make sense, since the WLCs had Big Twin front wheels, brakes and fork rockers already, which would make the whole whole rig have interchangeable wheels and only one wheel type to keep in stock. in the supply chain.

[Steve Slocombe]

As Kevin said, the idea of documenting Winners Circle bikes has been around for a long time. It has not been abandoned, but requires considerable effort plus volunteers. Matt Olsen put together a list of what pictures might be required, but it was hard to organise the bikes/photographers to be in the same place at the same time. I produced a video of a Winners Circle 1936 Harley VLH being judged, which is now posted on the Virtual Library. It took about two days photography and two days editing to produce, costing about $1000 and took $30 in commercial sales, so is not for the faint hearted.

We don't keep all the judging info in our heads to try to catch out owners. My VL book has been through five editions this last 20 years, and some of the info in the early versions has been superseded, as well as new items included. Don't forget Jerry Hatfield's work on the Indians, and the many scarce original brochures already loaded onto the Virtual Library by George Yarocki, Bruce Linsday, Dr Cleveland and other worthy AMCA donors.

[Chris Haynes]

Steve,
As a matter of interest regarding Pete Reeves ELC Knucklehead Canadian Military pattern bikes, are these equipped with the left hand sidecars? An old friend, who was stationed with the Canadian Ordnance Corps, Aldershot in Britain during WWII told me that they had just two of them, both run as solos. Originally, all 44 of the single batch of ELCs made were delivered from H-D with special sidecars with the wheels interchangeable with the bike wheels. I've not seen any ELCs here in Canada with these sidecars although I have pictures of the complete outfits on winter exercises with their designer (and the designer of the WLC) Tony Miller around 1942-43.
Al Johnson

All Knucklehead and UL sidecar wheels interchange with the motorcycle.

[kval]

For whose future reference?

Just thinking outside the box here on this one. What if it were "Documenting" instead of "judging"?

A pictoral book report could be created for each make/model/year and individual bikes that are respective of each and placed into the Virtual Library. This would preserve enourmous amounts of reference material on these old bikes. Now this is no small task, but a template could be setup that covers the different major categorys of the bike, perhaps similar to the judging sheet.


I participated in an apprentice judging session at Davenport a few years back, it was very enlightening. The biggest problem I see is that these "Experts" retain the information in their head, not documented in print for all to use and see. With that said even though I have never had a bike judged, I would like to extend a thanks to them for volunteering their time to the club.

Just a different point of view.

DJ
funny you should think of this. that is exactly what Rocky and I had envisioned for the virtual library, way back when the idea first came up
but as we now know that never happenned