Judging clarifications

[T. Cotten]

You are right, T-Bone,

Two references to the Tolkien Trilogy was too much.

Damn!
I just can't stop this alliteration thing!

....Cotten

[2wheels]

Mr Lyons and others that are uninformed,

I do not understand where you're coming from. I DO understand where Robin is coming from. After half a lifetime of devotion to this club he was thrown out because of who happens to be in 'power' at the time, this was not the choice of a majority of those that are part of the judging system. For you not to understand how underhanded this was makes me realize how uninformed you are on the subject. I guess it doesn't matter to you if there are members of our board that are corrupt.

From what I read on your ramblings and slander towards Robin, you don't really understand what has been and is going on in the judging. You mention Mr Heinz and all the changes he made, but you don't mention how many people didn't like his unapproachable behavior. Then you fail to realize all the changes that Kevin and Robin made while there were in charge, done in the correct manner, this is because you don't know, if you did, you couldn't possibly make some of the statements you're making. You are just uninformed. You also don't know how many people Kevin and Robin got back into the judging because they quit having bikes judged while Mr Heinz was in charge. His personality left a lot to be desired. I always liked Doc Patt, but I guess you never saw him get riled up. And here's one you probably didn't know, Doc Patt wanted Robin to take over as Chief Judge years ago when he was still Chief Judge.

Now you think that there is a marque expert on every team, this is also not true. Again, you are uninformed. And you mentioned about training new marque experts. Do you really believe a marque expert can be trained in a short amount of time, if you do, you don't realize the amount of information our marque experts hold in their heads. The new judging regime is lucky to have a few knowledgeable judges on the field because a majority of the good knowledgeable judges are staying away. Kevin and Robin didn't have to go on a campaign to convince the good judges or the bike owners to stay away from the judging, the judges know and the owners know that there's no reason to put the bikes in the judging now, they want judging that counts by knowledgeable judges in a system that isn't in such disarray. Those that don't know, are slowly learning of the discord that's going on. The new regime is also allowing
uncertified judges to help with the judging, people that have never been to a judges meeting or through the judging learning process. I heard through the grapevine that the new judging regime realizes their mistake of taking over the judging system and now they can't go back. they can only go forward in a manner that will cause growing pains for years and may never get back to what it should be. They bit off a little more than they can chew, it's very obvious. They are becoming the laughing stock of the bike judging world. What a shame. You see, My Lyons, this is what Robin is upset about. A half a lifetime of volunteering his time, now to see it turn into a joke. But you have to give our president, Rocky, credit for getting the job done. He never liked the judging and what better way to get rid of it than to get rid of those in charge and put people into those positions that are more unapproachable than Mr Heinz. Here's one you might not have known. When Mr Heinz was in charge, Robin was stil the one that hung around after the judging to answer questions from the owners and judges, while Mr Heinz was on his way out of town in his motorhome.

I'm sure Robin will be back judging in the AMCA as soon as the board gets their act together. Might not be this year, but it will happen. Robin's reputation is not scarred from this judging upheaval. Why would it be. You're not really into the Indian world, so you don't know the amount of respect he has. When someone needs a question answered on 1930 and up Indians, he is who we go to. Not just the individuals, but the big guys like Stark, Kiwi, Greer, Toney Watson and many from all around the world. If you were in the Indian world you would know this. I'm sure it's all these people that respect him that have contacted him about the judging. You see, Robin doesn't have to search out the people (as you think), they search him out. He has said there are many people that show up at the meets and still don't know that he and Kevin aren't in charge anymore. They're shocked, as I was, to learn that this club would get rid of an asset like Robin and Kevin. The new regime is also learning what an asset they were, now that they're faced with doing all the jobs that Kevin and Robin took care of.

I can also tell you don't know the new chief judge because you refer to him as a calm and patient man. Nice front they're putting on. And the instigator to the judging overthrow, whom you know, Slocombe....he is in it for his own personal agenda. Maybe you should read the judging committee emails from October through February if you want to learn what's really going on. You have no first hand knowledge of what's going on. In fact, it seem slike you're in cahoots with this new regime. Where else could all this hatred be coming from.


When you speak of wild rumors, imaginary extrapolations, character assassinating, oral diarrhea and mindless drivel, you're speaking of yourself. You, more than anyone, like to see your name and your slander up on the screen. You have called Robin every name under the sun. You have said the only false statements are his when all he did was report on truths. I'm very tired of your personal digs. This could only be done by someone that is.....uninformed.

Until you learn more about the subject, I am tired of your lies. Take Kevin up on reading the judging committee emails and learn as I did. There needs to be more people learn what happened to the judging and what could happen to any part of the club if those in charge can do whatever they want with no consequences. Until you learn the facts, you need to keep quiet.

There's also a petition going around to have the membership vote on the board members, you can sign it at the meets or you can sign online on this forum. This would give the members a say in who is running our club.


As in the book "1984", I prefer to remain anonymous since "big brother" is watching. (since you've read the book)

[exeric]

Give it a rest.

[T. Cotten]

Give it a rest.

It is this out-sider's best guess that ignoring this controversy will only make it fester.

The new regime better enter to offer their side of the story soon, because their proxies in this discussion keep shooting themselves in the foot.

....Cotten

[T. Cotten]

Geeze, give it a rest already.

There went your other foot.

Where are the 'powers that be'?

I am having a hard time retaining my mugwump position. Very hard.

....Cotten

[Sargehere]

Sir, anonymous coward that you are, hiding behind your nom-de-plume, 2wheels, you
know who I am, and need only to know that I am coming from decades of
devotion to this club. But know that I have no particular loyalty or obligation to
the present leadership of this club, except that they are in charge, they got
there legally, and that their direction in this matter happens to be to my liking.

My personal accomplishments in this club are many, and I won't restate them ad
nauseum, as you'll get from reading Robin's posts since March. But I've been
around antique motorcycles and participated in this club in many capacities for
at least as long as Mr. Markey, and I know what's gone down over that time.
As far as "uninformed," no, actually I know what has transpired in antique
motorcycling over all of these years. You don't have to be in attendance at
every meet, and privy to every meeting, to know the important aspects of what is
going on in the club. I don't have to get my information second and third hand
and repeat it for the benefit of others. I make up my own mind and I speak for
myself.

I know that the AMCA is incorporated under the laws of the State of Florida, the
result of another struggle in the 1970s-'80s (it was originally incorporated in
Ohio), being the legacy of another great upheaval during that time. But it passed. The
major players in that titanic struggle are all passed on, now, as we all will be
decades from now.

As far as the alleged dearth of "marque experts" to lead judging teams, there is
a difference between people with little hand-on judging experience, and
people who have already spent decades studying what's right and what's wrong,
as a part of building their particular chosen brands and models of antique
motorcycles. There are also many who's livelihoods they have made dependent
upon the continued health and reputation of this club and its judging system,
and who know it. Their experience with judging is not yet the same as their
knowledge of the bikes they work with every day, but they want to judge.
They know their bikes. If you thoroughly know the model bike you're looking at,
judging it is easy.

I know that Mr. Markey has done all he can to foment discontent and dissent
within the club since he was denied what he assumed was his "right" to accede
to the Chief Judge position after his boss made his tremendous error and got up
and walked out of the contentious board meeting in Eustis in February (not the
first contentious board meeting in the history of the AMCA , I'll remind you) and
was subsequently fired in the hallway by the President. The exact details are
immaterial (as to why, see my post, #77 in this thread, below). Board members
have struggled with the direction of this club since it was formed. People getting
too wrapped up in the here-and-now lose sight of the legacy of the decades.
The club is far bigger than any individual, or rule-making decision.

Sir, anonymous Mr. 2wheels, the measure of a man's character is not that he makes
mistakes, but what he does as a result of those mistakes; his resulting reactions.
I suggested that Robin should form his own club, and see how many follow him.
You see, he may be a "marque expert" in what we used to call "Post Antique" Indians,
but he's no leader. He demonstrates by his public utterances mostly the characteristics
of an adolescent child who couldn't get his way. That is an undeniable fact. Those
who propose to follow him into a new endeavour would be walking a plank of their
own making.

This club cannot long go on with two camps at odds. But I have great confidence that
this tempest in a teapot will be resolved at Davenport in August. And, given the
fact of the BoD having no obligation to bend to the wishes of, basically, anything
that the membership demands, nothing will come of your "petition," either,
except, perhaps, the reactionary formation of another Indian club, which will
assuredly come to naught if you put Robin Markey in charge of it. An
organization formed around a single individual is called a "cult," Mr. 2wheels. I
assure you that nothing good will transpire if you are putting yourself in the
hands of an emotionally-adolescent Robin Markey.

Robin admitted in his posts to hanging around Florida at bike week in March and expecting the
leaders of the club to come to him, to recognize him, and even to appoint him
Chief Judge, after the decision had already been made to go in a new direction
at the Eustis board meeting. see: http://www.antiquemotorcycle.org/bbo...2631#post92631

When he felt "snubbed" by the legally-empaneled leadership, his feelings were
severely hurt and he petulantly came home to embark upon this personal, telephone,
internet and email campaign to sew as much chaos within the AMCA, and stir up as much
discontent within it as he possibly could, aiming to unseat the legal leadership and to
remake the club in his image. That is not the mark of a mature individual.

Many have already judged his level of maturity, based on his observed reactions, and
some are even questioning his emotional stability. These are not my observations alone,
but those of other members, let me say of mature reasoning, who have contacted me in
recent months. If you think that is the way to go, I suggest that you go with him, Mr. 2wheels.
The Antique Motorcycle Club will survive.

[T. Cotten]

Eric, is 'Sargehere on your side, or just off his medication?

If the AMCA administration doesn't present their case immediately,
then the anonymous "2wheel"'s point of view only affirms all the suspicions and accusations that many of us find quite believeable.

Who would possibly consider judges who reply with such vehement attitude worthy in the least?

Considering membership apathy, has it now come down to the quantity of shiney trophys available? Whomever shouts the loudest wins? Experience and authority are dismissed for ego friction?
And the novice volunteers are expected to make up the difference?!?!

This is a sad day for vintage motorcycling,
as unless someone in authority shines light on this discussion+.
And it better have more honest content than the recent testimony of the BP CEO before Congress!

Personal attacks just don't cut it, Sargehere.


Hanging on the fence by my last fingernail,

....Cotten

[Sargehere]

Jump, Cotten! Jump!

[T. Cotten]

I see Eric deleted his second blast at his own foot.

The administration must present their side.

We all are here to listen. (Most of us I guess.... maybe... maybe in vain?)

...Cotten

[Sargehere]

Cotten, the Board of Directors, I think, will have plenty to say after the Davenport Semi-annual meeting. Until then, I think they're wise to keep out of what amounts to little more than nothing but Robin stirring up much dust, to appear as large as he can make it seem, anyway. I stated the truth: the BoD has no legal obligation to do anything the membership demands, or petitions.
They do have the right, BTW, to decline to renew anyone's membership that they wish. An action also answerable to no one. It has been done before. The club will survive.

[T. Cotten]

They do have the right, BTW, to decline to renew anyone's membership that they wish. An action also answerable to no one. It has been done before. The club will survive.

Is that a threat?

....Cotten

[Sargehere]

You need to pick your words more carefully, Tom. To carry out a threat, someone must have the means. Cotten, I have exactly as much power over this club as you do. I just stated a fact. I'm an observer like you, and I speak for myself only. I don't think I'm even personally acquainted with anyone presently on the BoD. I just know that it's been done before, and it is a very effective means of exerting control over those who've rocked the boat and won't stop.

[T. Cotten]

You need to pick your words more carefully, Tom. To carry out a threat, someone must have the means. Cotten, I have exactly as much power over this club as you do. I just stated a fact. I'm an observer like you, and I speak for myself only. I don't think I'm even personally acquainted with anyone presently on the BoD. I just know that it's been done before, and it has been very effective at exerting control over those who've rocked the boat.

Is that back-pedalling as fast as you can?

....Cotten

[Sargehere]

Are YOU off your meds, Cotten, or can't you read the English language consistently?
Lotta people 'round here are confusing their terms, reading into things what they want, or have been led by others to believe, and generally taking sides for no other reason than to hear/read their own words.
You axed me if that was a threat, and I said no, it's a statement of fact, based on my knowledge of the powers vested in the BoD by the laws under which the club is incorporated. Whatever happens, you will have the opportunity to learn of it at the same time I do, on the ground at the Davenport Meet, most likely.

[T. Cotten]

Are YOU off your meds, Cotten, or can't you read the English language consistently?
Lotta people 'round here are confusing their terms, reading into things what they want, or have been led by others to believe, and generally taking sides for no other reason than to hear/read their own words.
You axed me if that was a threat, and I said no, it's a statement of fact, based on my knowledge of the powers vested in the BoD by the laws under which the club is incorporated. Whatever happens, you will have the opportunity to learn of at the same time I do, on the ground at the Davenport Meet, most likely.

I see.
We all see clearly now...

....Cotten