Judging clarifications

[T. Cotten]

I believe one of the "better" forums "Sargehere" refers to is CAImag, where my posts were harrassed and edited by the moderator to change their meaning to suit his personal agenda, and forum owner Buzz Kanter replied to my protest with "I don't want to hear about Freedom of Speech." The moderator even signed his name, "BigIncher", so there was zero doubt.
That forum deserves his participation.

Back to the judging turmoil,
What is the value of a judging program if the owner knows more than any available judge?

With today's electronic means of storing readily accessible information,
wouldn't it make sense for the AMCA to be building a judging database that can be provided when no marque 'experts' are handy?

Every judged machine can be logged in, documented, and future changes in the machine addressed. Consider the controversies that could be avoided, and the foundation for judging integrity that could be built and maintained.

And of course, consider the History that could be passed on to posterity!

....Cotten

[Sargehere]

Gerry
again you speak without knowing anything, I HAVE NOT removed any posts. I do not beleive in censorship. I do not know what your problem is and don't really care, but people like you that talk without knowing are the real problem.
a few weeks ago you posted, that there were other forums that are SO MUCH BETTER then this one. why don't you go to them and post your garbage, and leave us alone.

You know from reading my posts on this subject what my gripe is. It's you and Robin, not knowing when you're no longer in office, and doing all you can to sew discord and sabotage this club that I've been a member of for 38 years.

I don't have to read the five hundred posts that were exchanged by the judging committee, Kevin. As I said when I posted the first report when I got home, on the new judging rules and their implementation at Eustis, I didn't have a clue how the changes were arrived at, and basically, I didn't care.

Of course, I, like the rest of the membership, have, by now, been treated to almost daily testimony by, mainly, Robin giving his side, since then, until someone who cared could almost recite it, blow-by-blow. And, for all that, I, and the great majority of the antique motorcyclists trying to enjoy our motoring hobby, or occupation, don't give a rodent's posterior, basically.

I post here, and I express myself as is my right as a member, because I've been a member of this club since 1972, knew the old timers who loved and built this club from the 600 souls who made it up when I joined, and don't want to see it rent asunder by the threatrical acrimony of fired former officers bent upon sewing as much chaos as they can in hope of wreaking vengeance upon the properly seated BoD.

You and Robin ought to give it up, Kevin. Basically, no one cares to know the details of how President Rocky Halter came to replace you with Steve Dawdy. The change was made, it was his prerogative to appoint whomever he preferred to be the Chief and Assistant Chief Judges, but you and Robin refused to yield to reality.

That's why it doesn't interest me to learn even more about what led up to the change. It doesn't matter. In one way or another, you and Robin were out-maneuvered politically, partly by allowing yourselves to be. What you fail to understand, Kevin, is that nobody promised you a rose garden. Peter Heintz kept his job and stayed within the good graces of successive club presidents because he was constantly out front, advocating changes for the improvement of judging, and the club.

I don't know the specifics, not having been involved, but maybe Pres. Rocky just saw a chance to freshen the judging scene and improve the standards by appointing someone who, obviously, he saw as one of those who was a go-getter and showed promise as an agent of change, and was approachable and likeable at the same time.

I personally saw lethargy in the last few years at judging. Bikes not being required to be started, exceptions made and prizes awarded to bikes not on their own merits, but because of who owned them, and incomplete records kept (revealed to me by the fact that you had no records of the successive years I judged) just down here at Eustis. I didn't get all over the country, but I saw plenty.

No, I'm not going away, Kevin. This is my club as much as it is anyone's. I will celebrate the day when this latest dust up finally blows over, becomes ancient history with all the others that I have seen come and go, that seemed so important in-their-times and have faded into obscurity since.

Robin has made a great deal of his 35 years judging, like it was his golden, guaranteed ticket to succeed you as Chief Judge eventually, and that he needed to do nothing more than outlive you to do that, and it was snatched away unfairly. Well, that's nice, but it only means that he's seen and judged a lot of bikes. It seems that it certainly never taught him to work well with others, the primary requirement for leadership. It seemed to only contribute to a general loss of ambition, except to advance in rank for no other reason than his seniority.

In a club like this, as well as in commerce, it's those with ideas for improvement, and who also follow through on them, who get noticed. Those who rest on their laurels get carried out upon a bed of them.

It would have gone a lot smoother, with amity all around, probably with lifetime achievement awards and plaudits, if you'd simply realized after Eustis that you'd gotten out-foxed, out-maneuvered, and that President Rocky, regardless of his outward demeanor, had considered everything that he knew from his history with you, and with Robin, and Steve Dawdy, and Steve Slocombe and others, and he was doing something completely within his power to appoint whomever he wished to your position. He's the President of the club.

[Chris Haynes]

Sarge sed,
Of course, I, like the rest of the membership, have, by now, been treated to almost daily testimony by, mainly, Robin giving his side, since then, until someone who cared could almost recite it, blow-by-blow. And, for all that, I, and the great majority of the antique motorcyclists trying to enjoy our motoring hobby, or occupation, don't give a rodent's posterior, basically.

Who designated you to speak for the rest of the membership? Certainly not me.

[Sargehere]

Sarge sed, ...for all that, I, and the great majority of the antique motorcyclists trying to enjoy our motoring hobby, or occupation, don't give a rodent's posterior, basically.

Who designated you to speak for the rest of the membership? Certainly not me.

It would be advantageous to you to learn how to read the English language, Chris.
When someone uses the expression, "Nobody gives a sh*t!" they don't have to produce signed affidavits from the entire world population. If you DO wish to wade through Robin Markey's entire rambling testimony, just click on his name where it's underlined somewhere here. I think there are 44 posts currently listed. The ones beginning just after Eustis begin, and then restate, and restate, his well-practiced rant.

[jurassic]

[T. Cotten]

Some further benefits to a judging database could be:

A degree of theft protection.
If a machine is documented, its traceability can be linked world-wide. Even specific pieces of hardware could become identifiable, thus diminishing its desirablilty to a thief.

Insurability.
Authentification of a machine would make dealing with companies more objective, as well as aiding documentation in the event of a claim.

Census taking.
Wouldn't it be nice to know how many machines actually fall in under the AMCA's domain, especially when motorcycles are often targets for insurance discrimination, and lawmaker's restrictions?
Are these concerns not part of the AMCA's mandate of promoting vintage motorcycling?

Provenance.
The history of a machine doesn't stop now. It can continue after it is passed from one owner to another, and from one generation to another.

There are more than I can think of off-hand, but I must ask:
Why hasn't anyone suggested a database before?

Or has it been dismissed?

....Cotten

[junkyarddog]

Very proper

The man of few words has said the most.
Jim

[fillibuster]

Gerry, how unfortunate that politics (and the ways of its players) have to stink up the club! Politicians set a lousiest example for the rest of us to copy. But we've copied quite well, it appears, as we seek to intimidate each other with clever and not-so-clever insults, and one-up-manship that actually means down-in-the-slop with the other dirty players.
There are real meat-and-potatoes discussions happening here, and we are losing the participation of valuable contributors. Who can blame them for staying away?

mud-wrestling is for chicks.

[Sargehere]

Phil, I'm with you. The points have all been made. Now will ensue the wagging of the tail of the dog. 'Seems that it always does.
This little dust up will be resolved, I am certain, by the BoD in Davenport. Too many here type just to see their names on their computer screens; the curse of the easy-accessability of the internet.
Someone tell Cotten that all bikes entered in judging are already entered into a database, based on the motor numbers, I believe, and the record follows it through, meet-to-meet. Which also means, "once DQ, always DQ." How to get to see it, and actually use it for the purposes he describes is an entirely different matter.

[T. Cotten]

Database

So,
Other than an internal list of numbers,
why has there been no attempt to collect and spread the knowledge of judges before they pass on (or are fired for rubbing the regents wrong?)
We have more than pencils and paper these days.

Is this not a purpose of this organization?
(Or is it just to pass out trophies to cronies........)

....Cotten

[kval]

You know from reading my posts on this subject what my gripe is. It's you and Robin, not knowing when you're no longer in office, and doing all you can to sew discord and sabotage this club that I've been a member of for 38 years.

I don't have to read the five hundred posts that were exchanged by the judging committee, Kevin. As I said when I posted the first report when I got home, on the new judging rules and their implementation at Eustis, I didn't have a clue how the changes were arrived at, and basically, I didn't care.

Of course, I, like the rest of the membership, have, by now, been treated to almost daily testimony by, mainly, Robin giving his side, since then, until someone who cared could almost recite it, blow-by-blow. And, for all that, I, and the great majority of the antique motorcyclists trying to enjoy our motoring hobby, or occupation, don't give a rodent's posterior, basically.

I post here, and I express myself as is my right as a member, because I've been a member of this club since 1972, knew the old timers who loved and built this club from the 600 souls who made it up when I joined, and don't want to see it rent asunder by the threatrical acrimony of fired former officers bent upon sewing as much chaos as they can in hope of wreaking vengeance upon the properly seated BoD.

You and Robin ought to give it up, Kevin. Basically, no one cares to know the details of how President Rocky Halter came to replace you with Steve Dawdy. The change was made, it was his prerogative to appoint whomever he preferred to be the Chief and Assistant Chief Judges, but you and Robin refused to yield to reality.

That's why it doesn't interest me to learn even more about what led up to the change. It doesn't matter. In one way or another, you and Robin were out-maneuvered politically, partly by allowing yourselves to be. What you fail to understand, Kevin, is that nobody promised you a rose garden. Peter Heintz kept his job and stayed within the good graces of successive club presidents because he was constantly out front, advocating changes for the improvement of judging, and the club.

I don't know the specifics, not having been involved, but maybe Pres. Rocky just saw a chance to freshen the judging scene and improve the standards by appointing someone who, obviously, he saw as one of those who was a go-getter and showed promise as an agent of change, and was approachable and likeable at the same time.

I personally saw lethargy in the last few years at judging. Bikes not being required to be started, exceptions made and prizes awarded to bikes not on their own merits, but because of who owned them, and incomplete records kept (revealed to me by the fact that you had no records of the successive years I judged) just down here at Eustis. I didn't get all over the country, but I saw plenty.

No, I'm not going away, Kevin. This is my club as much as it is anyone's. I will celebrate the day when this latest dust up finally blows over, becomes ancient history with all the others that I have seen come and go, that seemed so important in-their-times and have faded into obscurity since.

Robin has made a great deal of his 35 years judging, like it was his golden, guaranteed ticket to succeed you as Chief Judge eventually, and that he needed to do nothing more than outlive you to do that, and it was snatched away unfairly. Well, that's nice, but it only means that he's seen and judged a lot of bikes. It seems that it certainly never taught him to work well with others, the primary requirement for leadership. It seemed to only contribute to a general loss of ambition, except to advance in rank for no other reason than his seniority.

In a club like this, as well as in commerce, it's those with ideas for improvement, and who also follow through on them, who get noticed. Those who rest on their laurels get carried out upon a bed of them.

It would have gone a lot smoother, with amity all around, probably with lifetime achievement awards and plaudits, if you'd simply realized after Eustis that you'd gotten out-foxed, out-maneuvered, and that President Rocky, regardless of his outward demeanor, had considered everything that he knew from his history with you, and with Robin, and Steve Dawdy, and Steve Slocombe and others, and he was doing something completely within his power to appoint whomever he wished to your position. He's the President of the club.

Gerry
again you have proved how little you know about anything to do with judging and it's history from 1992 on.
I refuse to sit here and argue point by point with you as it seems you only want to hear what you have say.
so I will simply ignore you and hope you GO AWAY!!
PS: anybody else that would like to know the real truth, can contact me privately

[Sargehere]

I'll give you one incontrovertible fact, and that's the only important one in this whole discussion, as far as I am concerned, Kevin. And it makes me very happy, for the restoration of the health of the entire Antique Motorcycle Club of America. And it will have nothing at all to do with me, or anything I've done or influenced.
Following the Davenport Board of Directors meeting, you're going away.

[T. Cotten]

Gosh,

If "Sargehere" goes away,
who can possibly make someone like me look so good?

Even Gollum had a purpose in a fairy tale.

....Cotten
PS: That reminds me.
What ever happened to Jerry Hatfield?

We misses him.

[Sargehere]

A Class of Your Own

Impossible. No one can make you look good, Cotten. You should know that by now. Your incessant oral diarrhea puts you in a class all by yourself. Your composition of words in the English (?) language leaves others completely speechless. Perhaps it's only everyone except you that knows it. You should be given some award; for trying hard, perhaps. "Incomparable," is the word that comes to mind. No, more like, "Incomprehensible," is closer.

[t-bone]

judging

hey lets all take a deep breath and count to ten. okee dokee smokie?