Hostile Takeover

[Paps]

There is no greater asset than the well seasoned judge and no greater a teacher than this individual to educate the novice judge. Paps

[exeric]

I think Kevin and Robin did a remarkable job with an extreamly challenging chore. The only bikes I've had judged were under their auspices and that was for the simple reason that I thought the previous systems were flawed. I'll say no more on that. Robin beat me up badly on a my Indian but he was right and I now know what needs to be fixed. Kevin cut me a break on my Henderson because he could tell that it had run, (it just didn't run when it was asked to.) I think Kevin and Robin followed the spirit of judging and not the letter of judging. This is not to say that they ignored the details but they could see the big picture and that judging is something that should benefit the membership. I'll keep an open mind about the future, but I think Kevin and Robin are going to be a tough act to follow.

[redfred84]

Good of the Club

I had my own experience with the wrath of judging good old boys in the past. I attended the first national judging seminar in Ohio in the early '90s and intended to pursue a judging position. Due to my location and profession I was unable to do it quickly and finally had my opportunity at the Canon City Meets. However I had the audacity to challenge a ruling by Peter Heintz on a machine and was basically told my help was no longer needed in the judging area. I was also contacted by the person displaying and was happy to provide him with factory documentation and he was able to get his points back after an appeal. But Peter never forgave me and that effectively ended my judging career. Despite my years of research and large personal library surrounding my favored brand it all came down to ego and the ability to control the outcome. I found out it wasn't about getting it right, just getting it his way. How could a lowly apprentice judge challenge the Chief? I have only had a bad taste in my mouth since then as surrounds the judging field.
Robbie Knight

Hey Robbie!
Come on back! Don't let one bad encounter from years ago keep you from helping out the Good of the Club! The Judges' Breakfasts are much better these days too!
See ya on the Field, RF.

[Steve Slocombe]

Dear All, our President Rocky Halter told me his fingers aren't fast enough to reply on this forum, so here's part of a communications note he sent out to Chapter Presidents last week, reporting on the Eustis Board Meeting:

"Judging. I've been concerned that our system, dating back to 1991, is vulnerable to replica bikes being passed off as genuine, and formed a President's Judging Committee to recommend changes to raise our game. Several motions were passed by the Board including that as-raced competition bikes be judged under a new system; six points be deducted for repro frames; six points deducted for repro engine top ends; repro engine cases be disqualified; and all bikes to have good numbers, meaning the right font for the year and model, and correct engine boss. Kevin Valentine resigned as Chief Judge, and I appointed Steve Dawdy in his place. Robin Markey later resigned as Deputy Chief Judge, and I would like to thank both Kevin and Robin for their hard work in this area. At 8 am on a freezing Sunday morning, I turned up at the Eustis Judges' Breakfast to explain the latest rules, and was surprised to find about 40 enthusiastic judges ready to work on about 80 bikes. The rule changes went down well; Kevin helped with a smooth handover of the trophies, paperwork, and computer database; and the judging finished about an hour earlier than last year. You will know I'm more into Road Runs and Swap Meets, but I'd like to say how impressed I was with this technical core of our Club which stays the extra day to help members get their bikes to showroom condition."

[Robin-M]

Thanks William,

I'm here for the long haul. I'll be having fun, riding and restoring bikes FOREVER!! And helping the owners do the same.

Robin Markey

[William McClean]

Many Thanks !

Robin & Kevin.

THANKS to YOU, BOTH !! for the work and dedication you have given to the hobby and the Club.

I do hope that you remain among us and continue to share your knowledge and remain interested in having Fun, riding and restoring these old machines.

[Robin-M]

Robbie,

This is what Kevin and I have worked so hard to try to eliminate. But now I've fearful that it's going to go back to that same type attitude. Kevin and I brought back a lot of judges like yourself that were not happy with the previous judging leadership. I wish you would have contacted us and been a part of a smooth running, working system. I too was at that first judging seminar.

Robin Markey

[Rubone]

I had my own experience with the wrath of judging good old boys in the past. I attended the first national judging seminar in Ohio in the early '90s and intended to pursue a judging position. Due to my location and profession I was unable to do it quickly and finally had my opportunity at the Canon City Meets. However I had the audacity to challenge a ruling by Peter Heintz on a machine and was basically told my help was no longer needed in the judging area. I was also contacted by the person displaying and was happy to provide him with factory documentation and he was able to get his points back after an appeal. But Peter never forgave me and that effectively ended my judging career. Despite my years of research and large personal library surrounding my favored brand it all came down to ego and the ability to control the outcome. I found out it wasn't about getting it right, just getting it his way. How could a lowly apprentice judge challenge the Chief? I have only had a bad taste in my mouth since then as surrounds the judging field.
Robbie Knight

[Robin-M]

Louis,

Just wanted to clear this up.

I was NEVER part of the good-ole-boys. I've been trying to get on the board for over 10 years. I've watched a lot of members get on the board and go off the board while I've been trying to get on. I always thought that I could help benefit the running of the organization, as I always helped in the judging system making it fair and productive and as fun as possible for the benefit of the membership. Now, let me tell you a good one. I am the first person in the history of the AMCA to hold a national position and not be a board member.

I have worked to attain my position. It's not just the hours on the judging field, it's time spent behind the scenes to make the judging system run smoothly. Since October when this Hostile Takeover started, I've had to deal with over 500 emails of a new judging committee that was instigated by a board member (one of the good-ole-boys) with his own agenda to get rid of Kevin and myself because we overturned one of his friend's calls on the judging of a motorcycle. Sounds childish doesn't it. The leadership of this committee is incompetent to be handling the judging system. Like anything there are some good things coming out of the committee, but there's a lot more destructive things coming out. There was a lot of improvements and ideas that Kevin and I were working on this winter, but we had to stop to spend hours and hours dealing with this new committee.

When this improper committee was started by a board member, who's on the Policy and Procedures committee (among other committees), he broke policies and procedures, then the president made it legitamate so he could continue his quest. The president did not make him follow proper channels, any other member would have had to come to the Chief Judge and Assistant Chief Judge to have any grievance worked out, following proper protacol. He was given total control and allowed to do whatever he wanted to. So he did not have to work with Kevin and I - but - I was told the only way to maintain my position as Assistant Chief Judge was to work with the new Chief Judge and the committee. This was a title only position. So why was I reprimanded for doing no wrong, why wasn't the board member reprimanded for doing many things wrong in the start up of his first committee? Could it be because he's part of the good-ole-boys and I'm not?

I, like you, have always felt that the good-ole-boys shouldn't be in power.

Robin Markey

[LouieMCman]

Aren't most takeovers hostile? Or does it seem that way to the outgoing party's?

I do find it amusing that the comment "I feel that it's time for the good-ole-boy mentality to be gotten rid of" was used by a member that was part of that system for many years. Now he feels like the rest of us do about the national board!

[Chris Haynes]

Hey Chris,
The New Chief & Assistant Chief are HD guys, where the previous positions were held by Indian Guys. I think there's a conspiracy going on here? ; ). I understand you relocated out of SoCal, and are up here in NorCal, where it's really at?

RF.

Fred,
I have a place in Pine Grove but due to the economy still living and working in LA.

[Carl Olsen]

I have had enough of this crap, there are a few people stirring the pot about this judging thing and I would like to buy out their memberships and give them to someone who would appreciate them. If you select few people who are unhappy with the AMCA, the greatest antique motorcyle club ever, will contact me I will personally refund your membership and you can go join the Vintage Japanese Motorcycle Club and attend all of the board meetings you want, I am sure you will find it quite boring after a few sessions.

Last year there was a membership drive contest and the winner was a person who signed up 5 new members, that person was me and the people who I signed up were new customers that I contracted to restore bikes for, this is company policy to get them involved and exposed to the AMCA. The prize was a free membership, guess what I did with that one, I gave it away.

The AMCA members, board, and foundation helped with the bike giveaway for Ryan Mackey to get more young people interested in our hobby, my business took a hit of time and parts to make this happen and there is more to come, but this is our contribution to the future of the club. The more you give the more you will get back, so try doing something for the club instead critisizing the people who are.

The $30 membership dues are a small price to pay for all that you get from the club, which by the way if you invested $30 per year in a company in stocks you would have little to show for it, considering the current staqte of the economy, plus no right to vote or a say at the board meetings. Get real people and get off your butts and away from the computer and do something for the club to make it better, turn your frown upside down.

All of these opinions are mine alone and have nothing to do with my son being a board member, that is his thing and this is mine.

Carl Olsen member #1270

[joestuff]

bikerdds, Very nice write up, thanks. Please consider removing the last sentences, as invoking the present national political situation is a distraction from the rest of an excellent piece of work, IMHO. But I do agree a call to action is needed.

[bikerdds]

Hostile takeover

Hi guys. I would like this chance to offer some input on the incidents that occurred at Eustis and the removal of both Robin and Kevin from their judging positions. I have no gripe with the judges rules committee, which was the incident that led to this fiasco. We certainly can improve our rules. There will always be room for improvement. There will never, however, be a perfect result. This is just a work in [continuous] progress. Steve Dawdy has stepped up to do a difficult job under less than ideal circumstances, but the circumstances never should have occurred in the first place. This certainly is not an indictment of him or his efforts since the committee began anew to try and improve our judging, which to many of us is the heart and soul of the AMCA.
The real problem here is an out of touch board of directors with NO direct representation from the members. Most club members are probably not aware [may not care, but they should] that we DO NOT elect our board. We can not even attend a board meeting [unless specifically invited]. The board is responsible only to the board. Did we, the members, have anything to do with the split of the club and Foundation [right or wrong]? HELL NO! All this was done behind closed doors, and with NO warning of what was to come. Have we seen any kind of accounting for the hundreds of thousands of dollars involved in this transaction? HELL NO! Are you aware we have no direct involvement or control what so ever with the Foundation or it’s finances? Anyone who attempted to come forward and question this was branded a “trouble maker” [Mark, I know you are out there. Does this sound familiar to you?] and then told to shut up. Just this month, the Vintage Japanese Motorcycle Club posted a full page ad in their club magazine inviting members to meet the board and attend their board meeting. Why can’t we? There has been this excuse, that in the past we could and no one chose to attend. It is fine if no one chooses to attend; it is another when you are not ALLOWED to attend.
While our board has tried to do what it feels is in the best interest of the club, because there is no direct member involvement, it [the board] has also felt that there is no one out there who can do what it does. This fear is unjustified. We should be able to submit qualifications that are published in our club magazine if we desire to run for the board, then be voted in by the members accordingly. The old “this is the way it has been” just isn’t right or relevant today. For the most part, we may just be a bunch of old bikers as another member so eloquently said, but there is no excuse for the fact we need to run like a business. Corporate meetings are open to the stockholders. Why aren’t we? Even if we are not for profit, we have the right to see and hear about OUR organization and the money WE put into it.
The tie in between the board and this judging fiasco is that while a rules committee was and is a good idea, it was flawed from the start. The board is an incestuous group, has, and will continue to be that way until we, the members, stand up and demand it be changed. There were board members also on the committee [sorry Fred, just stating the facts, not your intent or mind set]. This committee should have been pure, with just card carrying judges, senior judges, and deputy judges on the committee with NO ability to carry a hidden agenda to the committee or the board. Our chief judge, Kevin, should have been allowed to chair the committee, but not have a vote him self [he also is on the board]. Instead, the president took over, and with suggestions other than from our head judge or the assistant head judge he attempted to direct the committee. Rocky is not into the judging. Our board members [there are two besides Kevin] either should have excused themselves or not voted on the board for any of these measures, but in reality should not have crossed over from board member to committee member to start with. Even if they had purest of motive, it wouldn’t matter. There would be and was a clear conflict of interest here. This is typical. How many board members are on committees where the membership has no say, or are invited to participate, but when things go to the board can’t attend unless invited. Closed door meetings with no responsibility direct to the members invites abuse. Please use the following url from the Sunshine Chapter for their take of these events at Eustis.
http://sunshinechapter.antiquemotorcycleclub.us ) anywhere. The Sunshine Chapter welcomes anyone to our website from anyplace.
There are a lot of us that owe our knowledge of Indian motorcycles to Robin. I certainly am one of them. There is an endless list of folks just like me. No member should stand by and let this abuse of power by our president or board members go. This whole fiasco appears to be a set up from the start. Some reward for selfless giving of 35 years. Many judges [at least 7] would not judge at Eustis due to loyalty to Robin over this mess. There also were several members who planned to show a bike and decided not to also over loyalty to Robin while this mess was being settled. Robin is correct that no board member came over to him at any time Saturday, as I was with him a majority of the day. He was humiliated over this. This was definitely a low blow by the board.
We have always done the best we could in the past to NEVER turn a member away. Remember, the judging is still an opinion of what is believed to be correct. There is nothing in writing that is a guarantee of correctness. It is just our best opinion. So, if we do not have some one qualified to judge at a particular meet, do we have to set up an appointment with someone qualified [if found] in the future? This is another reason for some disclaimer on the judging sheet, but not a full page disclosure. [see the following]. Robin or Kevin never let a bike go without judging in the past, especially if pre registered. Can you imagine, some one has pre registered, and then arrives after traveling a long distance to “we can’t judge your bike today; come back later when we have a judge”?
Then there is also the matter of the intended full page disclosure that got out at Eustis that the board wants members to sign in the future. While we do need to protect the club, a simple sentence and disclosure would be sufficient. We don’t need a full page of legalese to enter a motorcycle to be judged! This is intimidation, and not necessary. Plus, the owner supposedly can’t use the judging as validation of a bikes value! This is one reason many have them judged in the first place since day 1. This disclosure will be seen here ASAP for all to see and be horrified by. It really makes you feel like you are being required to sign some legal contract.

We should not be in a hurry to change the judging rules. They should be modified, then posted and implemented at a time certain. While the intent is to protect the purity of the judging system and the club, the disservice to the members to “rush to justice” is not what the committee intended.
Finally, the message here is the same that is currently wrong with our government on the health care issue. Our President promised open dialogue and full disclosure to the US people with all events shown on C-Span. What did we get? The same mess we have with the board. That is, the total lack of disclosure, and hidden agendas with no right to see what is happening because everything is behind closed doors. It is time for the members to take back the board AND our club. Maybe we need an AMCA version of the Tea Party movement seen around the country.

[redfred84]

HD Judges

Fred,
H-D didn't number frames untill 1970.
I have a question about the leadership in judging. It seems that all the leaders are indian folks. In general they know nothing about H-D, just as most H-D folks know nothing about Indians. When you call upon them to make a judging decision about a H-D they are "In the dark". You need to have someone from the national level at meets that know both. If this takes two members then so be it.

Hey Chris,
The New Chief & Assistant Chief are HD guys, where the previous positions were held by Indian Guys. I think there's a conspiracy going on here? ; ). I understand you relocated out of SoCal, and are up here in NorCal, where it's really at?

RF.