oley judging

[Smarty]

My bikes have never been in the club magazine. That isn't what I am talking about Smarty.
And certainly publication in a magazine is irrelevant to what we are discussing which is the stated goal of our official club judging system - to judge a bike only against itself to a standard of factory correct. That really isn't debatable. If that isn't the system that you like, then you can join several clubs all at the same time, which all have different systems to find the one that you enjoy the most.

Jim
#466

Jim,

We're getting away from the original vein of this thread, but I'll indulge you and respond to your post.

I am already a member of several Clubs who have simple judging methods and have won awards with my bikes which are factory correct I hasten to add (and verified by ex factory personnel).

As the AMCA is relatively unknown over here in the UK there is not much point in having the remainder of my bikes judged so I can receive a scoring sheet piece of paper with AMCA on the top. Whereas a class award at a UK event is far more recognised over this side of the pond.

Have a nice day.

[Smarty]

Martin,
I guess it was that sort of thinking that caused the Pilgrims to leave the UK and relocate here.

Chris, I guess a blinkered approach and an unwillingness to embrace different, perhaps even new, ideas is what caused GM to fail recently ?

[jupiter2]

Then we agree!

Jim
#466

[jupiter2]

At the risk of getting into a political discussion, European style socialism is what caused GM to "fail" if you consider having the controlling quantity of shares bought by the federal government with taxpayers money failing.

But we are really off track. It sounds like you are not a big fan of the AMCA in general. Makes me wonder why you joined a club you have such fundamental disagreements with.

Jim
#466

[Smarty]

Then we agree!

Jim
#466

Jim,

If you read my posts you will see that I have merely pointed out that the AMCA method of judging isn't the only method of judging which ensures a factory correct restoration. Due to the knowledge prevalent in the UK Vintage scene the AMCA points system isn't necessary as there exists a sufficient knowledge base from the old days which is currently being passed down through regular meets and communication and onto a new generation to ensure a consensus amongst your fellow riders as to what is and what isn't correct about your restoration.
It's this regular in formal contact and ride outs (the UK VMCC has in excess of 500 ride outs a year with the different sections all over the country) which remove the need for a formalised judging system in UK events. There are generally marque specialists for the major manufacturers within each VMCC section who give advice and guidance on restorations to keep them correct if thats what the owner wants. Of course there are guys who just want to ride and couldn't give two hoots as to what is factory correct for their bike. Both parties are welcomed at VMCC events as I'm sure they are at AMCA events held in the continental US ?
The whole point of my original post was that you don't have to have the AMCA judging system to ensure factory correctness. At the end of the day it's down to the owner to ensure factory correctness during their restoration process if that's what they want. The finished results i.e. factory correctness can be demonstrated by informal judging methods i.e. riders ballot. People spend a lot of time and money ensuring their bikes are factory correct and maintained in that condition. Do you seriously think they would vote for and let someone waltz off with an award if they didn't see that same amount of commitment in the other persons restoration and bike ?

Safe Riding

[Smarty]

At the risk of getting into a political discussion, European style socialism is what caused GM to "fail" if you consider having the controlling quantity of shares bought by the federal government with taxpayers money failing.

But we are really off track. It sounds like you are not a big fan of the AMCA in general. Makes me wonder why you joined a club you have such fundamental disagreements with.

Jim
#466

If GM had been sucessful, the socialist style nationalisation of GM wouldn't have been necessary. It was too big, too inefficient and had lost sight of its business objectives and how to make money. But thats a side issue.

Stop reading things which aren't there. I joined the AMCA because it was advertised as the foremost organisation for American vintage bikes (I bought one you see). I don't have to agree with everything it does, as from historic posts on this forum a lot of members disagree with things the organisation does.

Jim you only joined back in Nov 2008 and have posted less than 10 times. Take a while and read some of the old posts on the forum. It will open your eyes a bit.

[jupiter2]

Ok.
Yes, I only joined this forum in 2008, after decades of real world, first hand experiences with my club. Much better than typing on a keyboard, I say. I don't really think I need my eyes opened, but thanks for the suggestion. Once I post 129 times, I'm sure I'll be wiser to the ways of the world and more of an Antique Motorcycle expert.


Jim
#466

[Paps]

Paps,

I never said there was, only that the AMCA method of judging, and the arguments generated by what thankfully appears to be the minority isn't the only method of judging the correctness of a Vintage bike. As the respondents on the whole who have criticised my previous post have never even been to the UK or participated in a UK event, then they are speaking from a position of weakness. I on the other hand have witnessed the AMCA method of judging and have therefore seen both and feel able to comment on both. Freedom of Speech, isn't that one of the articles within the US constitution ? or do xenophobic feelings and comments override that ?

Next weekend is the Banbury Run in the UK where 600 bikes all pre 1931 take part. They don't use the riders ballot system on that event, nor the AMCA's method of judging with points knocked off. They use 1-3 judges all of who are time served in the vintage field and have many many restorations under their own belts to judge the bikes eligible for each class and the event has been run without issues since 1948 which tells its own story. The bikes also have to complete the run itself which depending on their class and age is between approx 30 - 60 miles, so there are no prizes for mere trailer queens and bikes with no internals which might look great and have every nut and bolt in the correct finish and a superb paint job but don't run.

Safe riding

The judging in the AMCA is done by the same types of qualified individuals as you mentioned Smarty. Every once in a while though, mistakes are made. They can be corrected with documented proof to the errors though. I hope you will attend that next meet you spoke of. Pics would be a pleasure also. Chris was a judge at one time. I wish he still was. His circle of qualified judging friends is enormous. I'll just mention one of those individuals.... Mr. Bruce Palmer III. If you own Mr Palmers books, you will find my friend Chris's name in them, under dedications. Europe lacks no expertice in vintage bike judging as well. The European experts visit the AMCA meets in the states quite often. Many are members of this forum. Paps

[pete reeves]

Smarty.

The AMCA and the VMCC are different clubs on different continents with members having different cultural back grounds. Both clubs have been in existence for over 50 years so it’s not surprising that there are major differences between them.

The major similarity between both clubs is that there membership comprises mostly of people who have a common passion for all things relating to old motorcycles.

As a member of both the AMCA and VMCC I feel that I may be qualified to respond to some of your comments

Judging is just a small part of what the AMCA is about.


The AMCA previously had an award system similar to that of the VMCC but changed to the current Judging system because it was felt this was a better system.

The award system used at most VMCC or classic bike events in the U.K and similar events in the USA is completely different from the AMCA judging system. The VMCC system is a competition with the top awards going to only a few Bikes. The judges decide what bike they think should win the awards.

The Judging system used by the AMCA is not a competition, judges use a check list and deductions are made for incorrect items, the team of judges do not decide who should win an award.
The score determines what awards are achieved.

The introduction of the points system of judging has accelerated the standard of restoration and the knowledge base of some of the more popular makes of machine to a very high level. Bikes that achieved the top award 10 years ago would struggle to qualify today.
Most of the issues you have mentioned relate to minor restoration details,

Owners have a right to appeal judge’s deductions; this is not an option using the VMCC system

The current system is not perfect and is constantly being worked on to make improvements. But I think you will have to agree that it is very popular in the States with the number of bikes submitted for judging increasing at every meet, I believe over 100 at this years Reinbeck Meet.

Your inference that some bikes may not have internals is wrong as all bikes submitted for judging must be shown to run.

I agree with you that the judging system is not to every body’s taste, it is not mandatory for members to submit there bikes for judging they do so in the knowledge that they will be fairly judged and that they will probably learn some thing else about there bike.



Every bike entered is normally judged by 3 or more judges with experience of make and model
Each bike must be judged at 3 different meets before it will attain the highest award possible.
The average man hours spent on judging each bike that reaches winners circle is over 2 hours and this is by judges that know the make of bike they are judging.

Every bike entered will receive a report from the judges (good or bad,)

The VMCC award system which if you use the Banbury Run you mentioned as an example has 3 knowledgeable judges to judge the 600 bikes entered .
The bikes are assembled and available for judging for less than 3 hours so the group of judges has less than 1 minute to judge each bike.

The AMCA system more than 2 hours per bike
The VMCC system less than 1 minute per bike.

I have been lucky to have received awards for my bikes at classic motorcycle and VMCC events and have been proud and grateful to receive them but I do not kid my self that I received the awards because my bike was the most accurate restoration there.


I will be at the Banbury run this year and and as a fellow AMCA member would be happy to meet you.I have judging literature that I could let you have which may give you more insight as to what the AMCA judging system is all about.

Pete Reeves 860

[Chris Haynes]

Chris, I guess a blinkered approach and an unwillingness to embrace different, perhaps even new, ideas is what caused GM to fail recently ?

Not at all. I simply disagree with your "Peoples Choice" type of judging. My guess is that there is a "WINNER" in your judging. There is no "WINNER" in AMCA judging as the bikes are not judged against each other but rather against the condition they were in when they left the factory.
A single person judging a bike can make many errors. That is why the AMCA judging has a team that can discuss the rights and wrongs of the machine.

[rbenash]

Not at all. I simply disagree with your "Peoples Choice" type of judging. My guess is that there is a "WINNER" in your judging. There is no "WINNER" in AMCA judging as the bikes are not judged against each other but rather against the condition they were in when they left the factory.
A single person judging a bike can make many errors. That is why the AMCA judging has a team that can discuss the rights and wrongs of the machine.

Have to say that I agree with Chris and this summary regarding AMCA judging. I like this solution best. It's not about "winning" it's about being correct - if you care. And if you don't you don't HAVE to have your bike judged. To me it's the value of feedback in respect to accurately maintaining a bike as a reference for the future, and those that will need help or understanding about what would make the same bike accurate or correct in terms of representation.