oley judging

[jupiter2]

I have to say that I agree. A bike judged against a standard is the only way to go. In our club, that standard has to be what is factory correct, so that our goal of preservation can be upheld to the highest level. We are stewards of these bikes while we are here, and our club leaves each generation with more correctly preserved history than the generation before. Although there are finite number of Antique motorcycles, the number of properly preserved examples keeps growing! It is a part of what this club is, unlike others that are only "riding" clubs. Of course we are about riding too!
Even though I had a bad experience with judging that has scared me away ever since, I do agree with the club philosophy of proper preservation and using judging as a tool to continue to fine-tune the preservation of each machine, when judged against our standard of factory correct.

Jim
#466

[Smarty]

Chris,

I appreciate your point of view, but I think you are greatly oversimplyfying things. The riders choice method here in the UK doesn't award for the prettiest bike, it awards for which one is historically factory correct. A large proportion of the vintage riders in the UK are lifelong motorcyclists and some either worked at the factories where the bikes were originally produced back in the day, or else have owned their 50-60 year old bikes since new. Their knowledge is being transferred to the younger generation now entering the vintage scene, through weekly runs in the summer and regular section clubnights. I guess that in the UK either through the size of our island or the culture that there appear a lot more opportunities to meet, share knowledge on newly restored bikes and we don't save judging up for supermeets like Rheinbeck, Oley or Davenport. I don't know fully about the continental US chapters meeting regularity, but the Chapter covering my geographical area meets only once a year at present and so relies on the internet for its members to chat and share knowledge, which if you don't have the internet is a bit of a handicap.

Some of the best restorations here in the UK haven't been done by reading textbooks and looking at original factory photos, they've been done by the guys who built, owned and rode the machines when they were brand spanking new, and you can't get any more "factory correct" than that can you ? As in th US from the photos in the AMCA mag that I've seen of US events, you get the occassional collector who thinks their entire bike looks great chromed and nickelled, but in the UK these don't win prizes and I guess they don't in the US either. The riders choice system also overcomes the unwillingness of people to put themselves up as judges only to be criticised by all and sundry.

Bikes in the UK are judged to be factory correct, just not with all the lack of willing judges, politics, bickering, abuse and recriminations that the AMCA method has generated over the years. But I guess you've chosen the system, now you have to live with it and not generate all the threads decrying it and challenging the judges decisions.

[bmh]

Smarty,I'll trust a photo before I take someones foggy old memories as to what is correct or not. I have a very good memory, and yet I can't remember every detail about any single bike I've every owned. Judging by the questions and posts here and on other vintage bike sites, most riders don't know what to look for or what they are looking at most of the time either. Of course when your whole country is smaller than the state I live in, I guess things are a lot easier easier. Just sit at the local pub and ask the old guy next to you if that nut was parkerized or cadmium, whatever he says must be correct. How many old boys are you riding with at these meets that bought brand new bikes in the 20's or 30's? Ever play the parlor game where a secret is whispered around the room and what started out as " can you see my shirt is red?" comes out the other side more like "could you please beat my head?" So much for the passing of info by oral tradition. And I guess none of those old codgers ever disagree as to what was what do they? What a Utopia it must be in the U.K., think I'll stay here in the land of milk and honeys.

[Chris Haynes]

Smarty,
I have never been to the UK and probably never will.
I have seen lots of books showing nice color photos of British restored machines. I must say I have never seen one in these books that looked to be restored correctly. Especially when I see the Military models. I have seen several Olive British H-D's that appeared to be, as best as I can describe them, as Avocado in color. If these are the bikes that your countrymen give awards to I think their memories must be fading fast.
Although I buy every book I can find on antique motorcycles I must admit that now when I find one that is done by a British author I will pass on it.
Hopefully some of you more knowledgeable folks like Peter Reeves will be able to give your folks a good education. Judging should be left to a team of judges who surround a machine and talk it over and not by everybody in the club.
Once again your ballot system amounts to Peoples Choice. If you don't judge on a points system you have no way of documenting things incorrectly done on a machine.

[Smarty]

Oh well its's a free world to think what you like. I would love to stay around and continue this discussion but I'm out early in the morning riding with the guys. BTW one of them prepared Steve Mc Queen' s and Bud Ellkins' ISDT mounts (both BRITISH made Triumphs) when they competed in Germany the early 1960's and another of the guys developed the legendary Rickman Metisse's with Don & Derek Rickman. Small world isn't it, and I'd take their word any day over your suggested methods which have proved to be so fallible. As regards American bikes winning awards at UK events, well the simple answer is they very rarely win as they're not really everyone's cup of tea over here.

PS Chris, it's usually you who bemoan the AMCA system anyway on this forum, so why suddenly spring to its defence now ?

Safe riding !

[Chris Haynes]

Oh well its's a free world to think what you like. I would love to stay around and continue this discussion but I'm out early in the morning riding with the guys. BTW one of them prepared Steve Mc Queen' s and Bud Ellkins' ISDT mounts (both BRITISH made Triumphs) when they competed in Germany the early 1960's and another of the guys developed the legendary Rickman Metisse's with Don & Derek Rickman. Small world isn't it, and I'd take their word any day over your suggested methods which have proved to be so fallible. As regards American bikes winning awards at UK events, well the simple answer is they very rarely win as they're not really everyone's cup of tea over here.

PS Chris, it's usually you who bemoan the AMCA system anyway on this forum, so why suddenly spring to its defence now ?

Safe riding !

While the AMCA may have a few slight bugs it is still the best system going.
Restoring vintage bikes has nothing to do with building one off racers.

[Paps]

Nothing against the Brits but ......Chris does know what he is talking about. Correct is correct. There is nothing deviating about actual correctness. Paps

[portagepan]

Have you ever watched an international motorcycle race, with a British announcer? I have. Need I say more?
Mike

[Smarty]

Ever watched the Simpsons or Family Guy ? need I say more ?

[Smarty]

While the AMCA may have a few slight bugs it is still the best system going.
Restoring vintage bikes has nothing to do with building one off racers.

Just to correct you as your knowledge seems to be lacking :

The ISDT is a Reliability Trial not a race. Rickman built Motorcrossers, road racers and road bikes.

Nothing to do with one off racers. These guys have stayed in the bike scene and have their superb restorations featured on a regular basis in Vintage Motorycling periodicals. I can't recall ever reading about one of your in the press ?

Chris you haver a reputation on this forum and others for your one sided opinionated views, glad you haven't disappointed on this occassion.

[exeric]

I'm not in full agreement with you Martin, but I'm pulling for you brother.

[jupiter2]

Are you saying that Chris hasn't had his bikes in motorcycling periodicals? Or the US club in general? If you are referring to the club, you would be incorrect. Even lowly me has had a bike featured in one of the most well known periodicals found on your local news stand. I'm sure hundreds of us can say the same.

Jim
#466

[Smarty]

Nothing against the Brits but ......Chris does know what he is talking about. Correct is correct. There is nothing deviating about actual correctness. Paps

Paps,

I never said there was, only that the AMCA method of judging, and the arguments generated by what thankfully appears to be the minority isn't the only method of judging the correctness of a Vintage bike. As the respondents on the whole who have criticised my previous post have never even been to the UK or participated in a UK event, then they are speaking from a position of weakness. I on the other hand have witnessed the AMCA method of judging and have therefore seen both and feel able to comment on both. Freedom of Speech, isn't that one of the articles within the US constitution ? or do xenophobic feelings and comments override that ?

Next weekend is the Banbury Run in the UK where 600 bikes all pre 1931 take part. They don't use the riders ballot system on that event, nor the AMCA's method of judging with points knocked off. They use 1-3 judges all of who are time served in the vintage field and have many many restorations under their own belts to judge the bikes eligible for each class and the event has been run without issues since 1948 which tells its own story. The bikes also have to complete the run itself which depending on their class and age is between approx 30 - 60 miles, so there are no prizes for mere trailer queens and bikes with no internals which might look great and have every nut and bolt in the correct finish and a superb paint job but don't run.

Safe riding

[Smarty]

Are you saying that Chris hasn't had his bikes in motorcycling periodicals? Or the US club in general? If you are referring to the club, you would be incorrect. Even lowly me has had a bike featured in one of the most well known periodicals found on your local news stand. I'm sure hundreds of us can say the same.

Jim
#466

Jim,

the Club periodical is only read by the membership, i.e. the 10,000 members. I am referring to the likes of Classic Bike and The Classic Motorcycle, both available worldwide on news stands and with circulation figures in excess of the AMCA journal. I would love to see more American bikes in the likes of the Classic Motorcycle but I fear it's a distinctly anglophile publication.

Safe riding

[jupiter2]

My bikes have never been in the club magazine. That isn't what I am talking about Smarty.
And certainly publication in a magazine is irrelevant to what we are discussing which is the stated goal of our official club judging system - to judge a bike only against itself to a standard of factory correct. That really isn't debatable. If that isn't the system that you like, then you can join several clubs all at the same time, which all have different systems to find the one that you enjoy the most.

Jim
#466