1965 Pan Questions

[rbenash]

Trying to understand how that would work and when.

If you repaint your bike while it's torn down I beleive it's a restoration and accessories are handled differently? Guess I need to read/buy one of the judging books.

If you have a restored '65 Pan and you have the HD accessory battery cover instead of the '65 top only you loose some points is what I understand. Maybe I'm incorrect. That's basically why I started this thread.

Thinking that if you are being judged and you have the factory accessory ribbed cover from 1966 you may be ok for non restored, but restored you will be expected to have the 65 cover, an exposed HD Logo Battery and an exposed black voltage regualtor.

[jwl]

You make good points. This whole thing is getting real complicated. If they dock you for exposing a repop battery in place of an original case with the logo on it then it is only fair to say that you will get docked for your Coker tires too. This is not too big a deal on a 65 because NOS Goodyear Super Eagles are still around but how about an early 50's Pan. Nobody makes a repop Goodyear Eagle and NOS ones have to be almost nonexistant, just like original batteries. While the intentions behind this judging system were good I'm afraid there are flaws in the results. There is a lot left to interpretation.

[rbenash]

Yeah, before you get into it (having your bike judged) you really need to level set on the value. To me it's not for the competition aspect, it's more about getting valued/educated feedback on what's an accurate representation. '65 HD FLx model year is very unique. Parkers book is excellent but it really stops at 64 for example. To me there's a reason and a whole other topic. How many '65 owners are their that are tired of seeing their bike referred to as a shovel or seeing pan years noted as stopping at '64?

A 100 point evaluation is pretty rare IMHO and you are going to take point hits on things that just aren't available or just too hard to afford/find. That's fine, I get it.

This thing about a repaint automatically being judged as a restoration is significant I beleive when it comes to how your bike will be evaluated. You/I need to know the difference. Not that i's a bad thing, just that I need to get educated on what to expect. It will be a runner and I may have to swap some parts when I want it judged.

Does a resto get dinged if it's dirty? :-)

If I repaint using OEM original baked enamel paints and bake the finish as the factory did, do I get dinged less than someone who uses repop paints/lacquer and doesn't bake? If I get judged the same as someone using repop paint I can ignore that one as far as my personal interpretation of the judges view perhaps. He's probably got clear decisions to make and no system is perfect. When it comes to paint we can even go to a lower level of discretion than that - matching the actual pigment/ink material and making your own paint versus using "color matched dupes" vs OEM materials vs OEM finish. Keeps getting more granular. Judges have to cut if off somewhere ;-) In the end you do it they way you want, sometimes only you are the judge.

Lends some understanding that even a true off the floor out of the crate original bike may get judged as a 99 point machine depending on the judge and circumstances. It's a feedback service to me, not so much a be all/end all evaluation. If you are looking to make top dollar/sell the bike (not my case at all) then interpretation of judging take another road.

[Chris Haynes]

[QUOTE=rbenash;77451]Trying to understand how that would work and when.

If you repaint your bike while it's torn down I beleive it's a restoration and accessories are handled differently? Guess I need to read/buy one of the judging books.

A non restored machine can have the sheetmetal repainted. Many times you find a nice old bike who has had its sheetmatal repainted sometime in its life. I recently found a 1965 Sportster with 25,000 miles on it. Nice machine but tanks and fenders were a terrible metal flake blue. I repainted it original color. Repainted tanks and fenders in an unrestored class earn a six point decuction. You can earn a Junior First but never a Senior First.
A period correct accessory is one that was available during the year model the bike was sold.

[Chris Haynes]

You make good points. This whole thing is getting real complicated. If they dock you for exposing a repop battery in place of an original case with the logo on it then it is only fair to say that you will get docked for your Coker tires too. This is not too big a deal on a 65 because NOS Goodyear Super Eagles are still around but how about an early 50's Pan. Nobody makes a repop Goodyear Eagle and NOS ones have to be almost nonexistant, just like original batteries. While the intentions behind this judging system were good I'm afraid there are flaws in the results. There is a lot left to interpretation.

Judges look for original size tires. Not brands.

[Chris Haynes]

If you take a little time to read the Judging Handbook it will answer a lot of your questions.
http://www.antiquemotorcycle.org/The...db_AMCA_04.PDF

[jwl]

Judges look for original size tires. Not brands.

Thanks for posting the link to the Judges Handbook. It's good to have that available. I couldn't find anything on tires and batteries though.


Are you saying that any tire on a restored 1956 panhead will not get a deduction as long as it is a 5.00 X 16?

I don't feel it is fair to accept a Coker Super Eagle replica tire on a 56 Panhead with no deduction but then dock a guy for a battery in a 65 Panhead that is not the hard rubber case type and bearing the HD logo.

This system leaves a lot open to interpretation. I doubt that you could ever have the same
bike judged at 2 seperate meets by different judges and come up with the same score.

I also don't think it is right that someone can restore a bike using a repop frame, sheetmetal, handlebars, headlight and who knows what else and with a little massaging get just as many points as a bike that was restored with all original HD OEM parts. I don't have any answers for the problems but there are sure a lot of questions that come up in discussion

One thing I like is the award that is given at the Oley meet. I think it is called the Wolverton award. There should be more of them. It goes to the best restored machine at the meet. That way the guy who uses all OEM parts can get the award and the guy who uses all repop probably wouldn't. Maybe the AMCA should give one of these awards in each class at every meet. That would be a much more prestigous award than just a Junior or Senior.

[exeric]

There's a lot more to the Red Wolverton award than you may think. Also, judging is something that people need to experience and not try to second guess. Get out there and be an apprectice judge. A lot of these question that we see posted would be mute if these people would get out there and see how the AMCA system works.

[jwl]

Eric,
I don't know much about the Wolverton award but I do know that the bikes that win the award are some super nice rides.

I don't know if you were addressing me or the members in general but I have been active in the judging process. I have judged several times and have had about a dozen bikes judged. It has always been a learning experience for me. I have learned a lot from the process but I see how confusing it is too. It is never the same. I think the guidelines are too broad and leave too much open for interpretation by the individual judges. I don't get too worked up by the results of the judging process but I can see where some less experienced fellows may get frustrated.

John Lindemann

[exeric]

I wasn't being critical of you John. I know that it takes a Hurculean effort for someone to win the "Red Wolverton award and it's a very special and seperate thing from rest of AMCA judging. I think the judging process should be looked at as a service that is done by dedicated volunteers and is for the benefit of bike owner. It's a great way to learn about your bike and should be looked at as a service and not a punishment. I think some members get a little too nervous about judging, when they should be looking at having some fun with the whole thing. Still, when you put your heart and soul into something it's hard to laugh off questionable judgements. The good thing about the judging system is; problems can be appealed and if you prove you're right it gets fixed. The bottom line is, the judges are people who can only bring their knowledge to the judging field. The restorer has to eventually learn as much, or more about his bike than the judge.

[c.o.]

Well that's food for thought Eric. As always well said! The more people strive to learn about their machines now, can only mean a wider knowledge base in the future.

[Chris Haynes]

Well that's food for thought Eric. As always well said! The more people strive to learn about their machines now, can only mean a wider knowledge base in the future.

This is true. However you have to be sure of what you are studing so you don't read that a chrome battery cover was an option on a 1965 only too find out too late that they were referring to the top cover and not a sidecover. Don't reley on information from Greg Field's books. Don't listen to old wives tales such as Chrome Pipes were part of the King Of The Road Group in 1965, when is fact it was chrome covers. Do research using factory information and photos. This stuff is available for most brands of American motorcycles.
I have a lot of this information in my collection and I am always happy to do a little research to help someone out. I have been collecting this stuff for thirty years. I have boxes and piles of factory literature I don't have time to sort out.

[T. Cotten]

I suspect that MOCO Dealers delivered a lot of brand new machines that the AMCA would now declare "incorrect":

http://nostalgiaonwheels.blogspot.co...road-trip.html

....Cotten

[rbenash]

Old wives tales are a tough one. If my father - who has a pretty much photographic memory, and beieve me I've tested it over the years - to my detriment tells me that he saw (and not the bike I am restoring) a close friends brand new 65 (I knew this guy and saw that 65 when it pulled up in the driveway) fresh from the dealer purchase and it had chrome pipes it has to make me question validity of even factory docs that say 65's would only come from the dealer with silver painted pipes regardless of group option. There's a question there. Not saying what you have in front of you is wrong at all Chris, and your information is irreplaceable - but when it comes to a 65 I don't know that everything is really known 100%

[Underdoggie]

Battery Cover

I check ebay about once a week to look at 1965 harley stuff, once I saw a bike for sale that was one serial number off from mine. Anyway, a couple of days ago (3/31) I saw an item for some old pictures for sale, they were of some runs in California back in 1965. Notice the battery cover on the attached picture dated July 1965. There were two other 1965's in the group of photos and all of them had the chrome battery side cover.