Knucklehead serial number

[Speeding Big Twin]

Two days ago I received a second response to the email I sent the judging board on 17 January. It was from an AMCA officer but he didn’t address my questions about 42, 43 and 47. Instead he included a letter which was written by an AMCA director. Here is said letter but with the author’s name omitted.



'As a representative of the AMCA Judging Board I would like to thank you for your interest in the policies and procedures involved with the verification of 1930s-1940s Harley Davidson motor VINs. Your interest appears to be specifically in the “Knucklehead” model.

The AMCA Judging Board is presently reviewing our policies and procedures pertaining to factory VINs for all makes and models eligible for AMCA Judging from 1990 and older. This review will include solicitation of professional restorers, collectors, senior judges, and interested members for their opinions and suggestions on this matter.

At this time the Judging Board will address Pending Disqualifications on an individual basis, with the owner/member, as they occur.

I would like to invite you to submit your suggestions to the Judging Board, via the same email you just used. When a consensus is reached the Judging Board will vote on any changes to current policy and publish the results on the AMCA Website.

Once again, thank you for your continuing interest in the AMCA'



Below is the email I sent a short while ago.
Eric


'Thanks for the response but the letter contains no answers to questions I asked the judging board regarding 42, 43 and 47. My interest isn’t specifically in Knuckleheads but I used a 42 as an example because I wanted to know what would happen if at an AMCA national meet there was a disagreement about the authenticity of the SN of such a bike.

As for suggestions, I may have a few although some may already be in place but I won’t know that until the board answers my questions from the email I sent in January. Why can’t the judging board answer those questions?

I realise the AMCA doesn’t like to make details public regarding H-D SN characters but I think that is a problem. And I fail to see what harm could be caused by answering the following: would the evidence submitted to the board by the judge consist of photos only or would there be H-D factory paperwork submitted regarding the types of stamps used for H-D SNs? Thank you.'

[Chris Haynes]

You can always see good examples of numbers on my web site. https://vintageamericanmotorcycles.com/v/Numbers/

[Speeding Big Twin]

You can always see good examples of numbers on my web site.

Earlier in this thread you referred to numbers on race bikes but I told you what you described doesn’t help in this situation. And neither will the case numbers on your website. Yes some are good but according to you all the examples that are not good are identified as such. But that wasn’t true ten years ago and it still isn’t true today. Remember in 2015 you thought 53FL1385 and 67FLH8+++ were good but I disagreed. You then changed your mind about both those SNs and you changed their status on VAM. In other words you had agreed with my findings. In fact you even thanked me for my input. Remember?

But you didn’t change the status of four other SNs I commented on in 2015 even though I provided reasons why they did not appear consistent with factory stamping. And there are several other alleged case numbers on your site that also need to be addressed. If you want to go through them you could start a new thread.
Eric

[Kozy]

I have a question about the replacement cases not having belly nos. stamped on them. I have a set of U cases with an unstamped vin pad but there are align bore belly numbers stamped. Belly nos. are 47 and date codes are also 47. Do these belly nos. look factory stamped.?

[Rubone]

I have a question about the replacement cases not having belly nos. stamped on them. I have a set of U cases with an unstamped vin pad but there are align bore belly numbers stamped. Belly nos. are 47 and date codes are also 47. Do these belly nos. look factory stamped.?

If you added a picture I sure don't see it?

Pretty common to just have two digits on a belly with matched cases. The 47 is a fluke, I've had them with numbers in the 60s and 70s before on '40s era cases.

[Chris Haynes]

I have a question about the replacement cases not having belly nos. stamped on them. I have a set of U cases with an unstamped vin pad but there are align bore belly numbers stamped. Belly nos. are 47 and date codes are also 47. Do these belly nos. look factory stamped.?

They look perfect to me. I have had several sets with no serial number with full line bore numbers on them.

[Kozy]

If you added a picture I sure don't see it?

Pretty common to just have two digits on a belly with matched cases. The 47 is a fluke, I've had them with numbers in the 60s and 70s before on '40s era cases.

The pictures appear on my screen and apparently Chris'. I uploaded them from files saved on my PC.

[duffeycycles]

These 2 digit Line bore are post production, made after the last Knucks rolled off the assembly line. All of the NOS WLA cases that I saw had full line bore #. Maybe 2 digit was post production only. Date codes are inside the cases

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[KNUCK]

I think I'm in the same camp with Steve. Why give the faker any help, let everyone do their own homework and if an issue comes up sort it out then. The AMCA is sharing the fact that you should all do your research or else there may be a little pain some day.
I strongly urge any prospective Knuckle/Pan buyer to visit Chris Haynes website. Or anybody who wants to learn, school is in session.

[Speeding Big Twin]

I strongly urge any prospective Knuckle/Pan buyer to visit Chris Haynes website. Or anybody who wants to learn, school is in session.

KNUCK, please read my previous post.
Eric

[KNUCK]

I hear you but point to a better site for info and photos ..................................

[Speeding Big Twin]

I hear you but point to a better site for info and photos ..................................

If you’re referring to H-D SNs, VINs and/or BNs I wouldn’t point to any site I’ve seen because they all contain some bad info. And that includes VAM and I’ve been saying so for many years. For example imagine a newcomer gets pointed to that site because he/she wants to know what a 39 SN looks like. They notice 39EL1414 has a sans serif 3 but in 39G+0+9 and 39U34++ the 3s are seriffed yet all three SNs are alleged to be good because the site does not indicate otherwise. Will said newcomer conclude that for 1939 models the factory used a sans serif 3 for Knuckleheads but a seriffed 3 for Flatheads?

Why is 39EL1414 alleged to be good when it isn’t consistent with factory stamping for 39? To me it looks like it may have been a replacement case stamped by a dealer who used H-D stamps but some of them such as the 3 were from earlier times and not the normal types for a 39 model.

Also what about 41FL3553, 47EL13649, 50FL11328 and 52FL2330. All four of those SNs are alleged to be good because that site does not say otherwise. But none of those four SNs looks consistent with factory stamping.
Eric

[KNUCK]

Some of my favorite serial numbers seen on a case is the one with a curved back 6 and a straight back b within the same sequence, and another one where the whole number is lined out and a new number stamped below it. Just saying that the Company and dealers did a lot of strange things. If I may borrow from the Pope who said, "who are we to judge"

[Speeding Big Twin]

Some of my favorite serial numbers seen on a case is the one with a curved back 6 and a straight back b within the same sequence, and another one where the whole number is lined out and a new number stamped below it. Just saying that the Company and dealers did a lot of strange things. If I may borrow from the Pope who said, "who are we to judge"

Who are we to judge? In March you strongly urged any prospective Knuckle/Pan buyer to visit VAM. And that is where case numbers had been judged by one person or another involved with that site which is why some examples are classified in a certain way while others are not. You also said: ‘Or anybody who wants to learn, school is in session.’
But now you’re saying who are we to judge?

When that alleged school is in session, apparently people who want to learn are supposed to accept all case numbers there are good unless the site says otherwise. But I disagree. And with good reason, as I’ve indicated many times over the years.

As for lined-out numbers, we know the factory did that to a lot of VINs in the 70s and I have a copy of a letter Pete Simet from H-D sent to the owner of a certain XLCR to explain it. We also know about a few other things the factory did in the 70s because they’re addressed in a certain Service Letter and a certain Service Bulletin.

But at VAM I see no explanation about 39EL1414, 41FL3553, 47EL13649, 50FL11328 and 52FL2330 even though they do not look consistent with factory stamping. As I mentioned above, 39EL1414 may have been a replacement case stamped by a dealer who used H-D stamps but some of them such as the 3 were from earlier times and not the normal types for a 39 model. But IF that SN, and the other four SNs, are all strange things done at the factory then why are they not accompanied by evidence which explains what happened?
Eric

[Speeding Big Twin]

Thanks to the person who liked my post #44 but I don’t know who you are yet because your name isn’t shown. In the past I’ve received a few notifications via emails which let me know who liked posts of mine but not anymore. And today via my message centre there are notifications about people liking posts of mine in two threads but no names.




Admins/Moderators, why aren’t the names of people who like a post included at the bottom of the post? That’s what happens on some of the other forums where I’m a member so why can’t it happen on this forum? Can this situation be addressed please so we all know who liked a post. Thank you.
Eric