Knucklehead serial number

[Speeding Big Twin]

Imagine a 42 Knuckle is examined at an AMCA national meet and one of the judges says he doesn’t like the look of the SN. But the owner disagrees and tells the judge that all the SN characters appear normal for a 42 Knuckle and he even mentions one or more features about each of them. The owner also tells the judge certain things about the SN boss and that they are not uncommon for 42 and he shows the judge photos of these things on the SN bosses of two other 42 Knuckles.

But what happens next? Is the judge required to say why he doesn’t like the look of the SN characters and exactly what he thinks is wrong with them? And if so is the judge required to provide evidence to support his opinion?

NB: before starting this thread I downloaded the AMCA Judging Handbook Revisions 10/24/24 but are they in the current Judging Handbook? I don’t know because when I tried to download it a message appeared on screen saying: ‘Sorry, the document you requested is not available.’ And the same thing happened when I tried to view the AMCA Judging Handbook & Guidelines 2023.
Eric

[PaulCDF]

Man Eric Sorry that happened to you.

Hopefully Chris Haynes (The Crumudgeon) will weigh in he's the SN Guru IMO

I know zip about judging and have too "fragile" an ego to ever put myself or my bike in a position to go through that.

Final thought if your Knuckle is insured or registered with some state entity and they have accepted it (again IMO) that should mean something.

[Rubone]

Man Eric Sorry that happened to you.

Hopefully Chris Haynes (The Crumudgeon) will weigh in he's the SN Guru IMO

I know zip about judging and have too "fragile" an ego to ever put myself or my bike in a position to go through that.

Final thought if your Knuckle is insured or registered with some state entity and they have accepted it (again IMO) that should mean something.

You missed the point here Paul.
Eric is only proposing a scenario. It didn't happen to him. He is merely looking for feedback from the community on what level of expertise may be expected in a tough situation. As for Serial number expertise Eric likely has the most extensive library of H-D serial numbers ever assembled, far more than Chris has ever seen. Not to disparage Chris, but Eric has made a life's mission of collecting , dissecting,analyzing, and categorizing Serial numbers, belly numbers, date codes, theft codes, etc.

[PaulCDF]

My Bad Sorry Misunderstood

[exeric]

Boy ! I don't know if I want to go here, but is there possibly a 'dealer stamp' factor in all of this? I have to believe that dealers 'legally' stamped more than a few cases due to accidents that often cracked a case just under the number boss. I revere Eric's tireless efforts to document H-D numbers and all the nuances of font, and character anomalies, but is there any documentation of stamps sold to dealers only. Stamps that would be authorized to dealers only, and possibly characteristic and differentiated from Harley-Davidson's factory production stamps? . . Just throwing it out there.

[Rubone]

Boy ! I don't know if I want to go here, but is there possibly a 'dealer stamp' factor in all of this? I have to believe that dealers 'legally' stamped more than a few cases due to accidents that often cracked a case just under the number boss. I revere Eric's tireless efforts to document H-D numbers and all the nuances of font, and character anomalies, but is there any documentation of stamps sold to dealers only. Stamps that would be authorized to dealers only, and possibly characteristic and differentiated from Harley-Davidson's factory production stamps? . . Just throwing it out there.

Dealers at the time used any stamps they chose to buy. H-D didn't sell stamps or care what the font looked like. None of that mattered to them or to LEOs at the time. It is usually easy to tell dealer stamped cases because replacement cases did not have full belly numbers. And if you could see inside them usually incorrect date codes. Leos generally looked for major anomalies like grinder marks, machining marks,dramatically different font sizes,etc.

This doesn't make them illegal, just not factory correct. So for judging that is still a no go, unless perhaps someone had a legal affidavit of proof of replacement. Even then it bends the idea of originality.

[exeric]

I suspected as much, Robbie but always good to hear from people who have more real experience with dealership practices. As I tell people who argue non factory colors, or unusual features on a bike they own; it's only true if you can prove it with a document. . . Kinda' takes the fun out of a good B.S. story.

[Steve Slocombe]

Yes, replacement cases are not factory original, which is the touchstone for AMCA judging. On numbers, we are seeing replica knucklehead frames, recast crankcases, and number stamps being sold at AMCA Meets, but so far the judges are still a bit ahead of the fakers. In answer to Eric's theoretical question, the Event Chief Judge has the decision at the Meet whether to accept the stamped numbers, after discussion with the judging team leader. If there is doubt then the judging form is marked 'pending', no award is made at the Meet, and the evidence is then considered by the Judging Board over the following days, when the various parties can submit evidence for their views. The bike is then disqualified if the Judging Board agrees those are bad numbers, or the award it would have at the Meet is mailed out and the judging form corrected. There is no further appeal.

[duffeycycles]

Example of belly numbers on NOS Knuck cases Robbie mentioned.These cases have post production date codes inside.

DSC_0035.JPG

[Architect]

I think the issue becomes, who is the "expert"? I do not expect every judge at every AMCA meet to be an the expert on all marques, so when you have an issue, who do you contact? When it comes to a HD VIN, I would reach out to Eric as the expert. Using his hypothetical scenario, if Eric is there and explaining why the numbers are good, who is the expert on the Judges side to disagree. Slippery slope, how do we determine who is the expert witness? And different marques become harder I would think, we have pretty good documentation on Harleys, who knows what a Nimbus serial number is supposed to look like?

Per Steve's comments, the Judging Board review should sort out almost any issue. Just don't lose your cool the day of judging, good luck.

[Chris Haynes]

Boy ! I don't know if I want to go here, but is there possibly a 'dealer stamp' factor in all of this? I have to believe that dealers 'legally' stamped more than a few cases due to accidents that often cracked a case just under the number boss. I revere Eric's tireless efforts to document H-D numbers and all the nuances of font, and character anomalies, but is there any documentation of stamps sold to dealers only. Stamps that would be authorized to dealers only, and possibly characteristic and differentiated from Harley-Davidson's factory production stamps? . . Just throwing it out there.

Letter to dealer stamping numbers.jpg

[Steve Slocombe]

For Architect, the issue of levels of expertise among different marques has been a potential problem for AMCA judging for a long time. Our current procedure requires a three week pre-registration lead time before the Meet. The Event Chief Judge scans the list of pre-entries and looks for issues. If, for instance, a Nimbus is entered then the ECJ can request digital photos for review by our Nimbus experts. If say the bike has non-matching numbers, quite common for this marque, then the owner can be advised and an on-site disqualification avoided. We also have access to the VMCC for help with British bikes, many of which have non-matching but correct factory engine and frame numbers. For walk-ups at the Meet, the ECJ can decline to have them judged if there are not qualified judges on the field, and we've seen this a few times in the last couple of seasons.

On Harleys, Chris' letter shows the picture in 1947. AMCA judging would say that state engine numbers and original numbers stamped in new cases would not be eligible, but this would not stop these bikes getting titles. I help the UK authorities by dating imported Harleys for titling purposes. As the identity of the bike is with the frame now, we have seen imported bikes with state engine numbers get titles, as well as WLA/WLC bikes with altered or no engine numbers that are dated from the headstock forging die number. It's another rule-based system, just with different rules to AMCA judging.

[Architect]

Steve, the pre-registration definitely comes across as a brilliant idea. And the more obscure the brand, the more it is needed. But we also have lots of opinions and facts on the more common brands that do not agree, which is what I think Eric's original question was about. If one "expert" says the top of the 4 should be open and the other "expert" says closed and both can back up their opinions with documentation, now what do we do?

[Speeding Big Twin]

On numbers, we are seeing replica knucklehead frames, recast crankcases, and number stamps being sold at AMCA Meets, but so far the judges are still a bit ahead of the fakers. In answer to Eric's theoretical question, the Event Chief Judge has the decision at the Meet whether to accept the stamped numbers, after discussion with the judging team leader. If there is doubt then the judging form is marked 'pending', no award is made at the Meet, and the evidence is then considered by the Judging Board over the following days, when the various parties can submit evidence for their views. The bike is then disqualified if the Judging Board agrees those are bad numbers, or the award it would have at the Meet is mailed out and the judging form corrected. There is no further appeal.

Thanks, Steve. Regarding the evidence submitted by the judge(s) and considered by the Judging Board over the abovementioned following days, what would it consist of if the SN in question was from, for example, a 42 Knuckle?
I’m not aware of any H-D factory paperwork regarding the types of stamps used for Knuckle SNs, regardless of model year. Does the AMCA have any such paperwork? And if not, what evidence would the judge(s) submit? Photos only?

Also as you’d know, if the SN in question was from a 43 Knuckle (or 43 Flathead) the situation can become more complicated. When there are disagreements about the type(s) of 4(s) for 43, how does the AMCA address them? Are photos the only evidence the judges could submit for 43s?

Other interesting years for H-D SNs include 47. When disagreements arise about certain SN characters for 47, regardless of Knuckle or Flathead, are photos the only evidence the judges could submit?

And regardless of what the AMCA evidence consisted of on any occasion, would that evidence be shown to the owner(s)? And could that evidence later be made available for viewing on this forum?
Eric

[Steve Slocombe]

Dear Eric, we're getting down in the underbrush now so I'll have to refer you to the Judging Board. But the comments illustrate one of my worries, that Harleys get beaten to death by our judging system while obscure marques get more of a free pass. My nightmare is a 1963 Marusho sailing through to Winners Circle, when an outside expert notes it has mismatching engine and frame numbers and our whole 'best motorcycle judging system in the world' comes crashing down. Years ago Kevin Valentine would ask me to 'sweep up the oddballs' at the end of a judging session, and I spent time on Cushmans, Sears and other marques where I had little or no expertise. I'm not doing that any more, but the ECJ will always be under pressure to judge late entries or little-known marques where our judging expertise is not up to Harley-Davidson standards.