Amca, vjmc, judging and accusations

[jlh3rd]

And your right about taking it in stride.....but when I meet a fellow enthusiast who really showed an interest in my bike on a Fri. evening, who doesn't even speak to me the next day.....how would you feel...and it's not his fault

[jlh3rd]

jlh3rd,

I personally don't care to ever have one of my bikes judged........cause they would get pecked apart......but I could understand your "frustration" with his behind the scenes discussions.....that being said.......why not just confront HIM and ask for HIS proof of the replaced/repainted parts in question as to what makes HIM think it has been who knows you both may learn something.

My newest soon to be antique is a 1980 Honda Twin Star second owner, and yes original paint with 786 miles on it still has the change oil sticker at 600 miles on the speedo, may bring it to Oley in April

Just my 2 1/2 cents

I did.....at oley.....I took the proper channel.....I thought it was done.....please read all my posts....and he's welcome on here any time.....he can email me....he can call me on the phone....whatever....
He did tell me, one was the orange peel, well I just explained that...another was the absence of clear coat...honda didn't start clear coats until the 80's (from a honda expert)....(and my experience with repairing my 71 450 tank there was no clear coat) and I now have a 400f pic which shows no clear coat over the decals.....but...we're getting off subject again.....
As a judge, your entitled to your opinion....that doesn't give you the right to bad mouth a member by implying he's lying about his bike to others just because your in a position that enablea you to do that.....maybe he needs to contact me....I kept shut and tried the nice guy route....read my posts.....and I didn't have these facts to defend myself at oley, rhinebeck....but he new my position but still chose his actions
Look.....it's simple.....don't...call...me....a ....liar.....

And judging...I don't care how you "peck" it apart....I knew how it was when I joined...if the pecking needs to be changed then ok.....if it's applied evenly, then ok.....

Mine still has the change sticker also....kinda cool what can survive....

[fciron]

There's been a lot of discussion of judging at possible paint discrepancies, but that is not what the complaint is about. Jlh3rd is upset because he feels he's been personally maligned. That does not help people save old bikes and it is bad for the AMCA and the hobby.

[BoschZEV]

..but when I meet a fellow enthusiast who really showed an interest in my bike on a Fri. evening, who doesn't even speak to me the next day.....how would you feel...

To put a positive slant on this, if a judge who I knew and whose opinion I had reason to respect on the specific topic at hand told me a bike had been repainted even though the owner insisted otherwise I would assume the owner simply didn't realize it had been repainted. That is, somewhere in its long life it had been repainted but sold to the current owner as original and the owner had believed it. I would not think the owner is a "liar," i.e. deliberately trying to misrepresent it, as a result of the judge's comment.

As for why that guy didn't speak to you the next day there are dozens of possibilities (other things on his mind, just had a fight with his wife, thinking about making an offer on another bike,...), but bypassing you because he thought you had lied about the paint on your bike is way down on that list.

[Adam M]

I'm sorry you feel slighted , But I think there were ways you could have dealt with the situation when it happened. Most people get involved in judging because of the love of the hobby and genuine interest and good spirit. I would have tried to have a dialogue about the discrepancy and find out their take on it. There's a lot of other ways to handle it, I don't know you , and I don't doubt your claims , I also don't know a thing about Hondas , I'm curious what they saw to make them think it was a repaint ?
Adam

[Chris Haynes]

They do make a sensor that can tell how many layers of paint are on an object.

[jlh3rd]

To put a positive slant on this, if a judge who I knew and whose opinion I had reason to respect on the specific topic at hand told me a bike had been repainted even though the owner insisted otherwise I would assume the owner simply didn't realize it had been repainted. That is, somewhere in its long life it had been repainted but sold to the current owner as original and the owner had believed it. I would not think the owner is a "liar," i.e. deliberately trying to misrepresent it, as a result of the judge's comment.

As for why that guy didn't speak to you the next day there are dozens of possibilities (other things on his mind, just had a fight with his wife, thinking about making an offer on another bike,...), but bypassing you because he thought you had lied about the paint on your bike is way down on that list.

Well, you weren't there......on Fri.,Alex,his name,came over to my truck to help unload my bike, and was super impressed with the condition especially after I told him it was an unrestored original. He explained he was helping the vjmc guys and wanted the sandcast 750 on one end and mine on the other. We talked for a while,and then he wanted to introduce me to the head vjmc guy, who,turned out to be the oley judge MacMurray....once that reality set in, that's when ,he said did I sand my tank down yet....that took me by surprise,how many times do I have to say on here that I thought that was rectified at oley.....I didn't haul my bike up there to get into an argument and wasn't prepared for one....get the picture...yet ?
So...long story short...Alex and I talked bikes, parted friends.....and he couldn't say squat to me all day Sat?........you must think I was born yesterday.....

[jlh3rd]

I'm sorry you feel slighted , But I think there were ways you could have dealt with the situation when it happened. Most people get involved in judging because of the love of the hobby and genuine interest and good spirit. I would have tried to have a dialogue about the discrepancy and find out their take on it. There's a lot of other ways to handle it, I don't know you , and I don't doubt your claims , I also don't know a thing about Hondas , I'm curious what they saw to make them think it was a repaint ?

Adam

I did handle it at oley...the way amca wants it handled....his point reduction was overturned.....how many times do I have to point that out.....at rhinebeck, MacMurray was not an official part of the judging team on my bike but his vjmc co-sponser, Rich, the one holding his iPhone 2 inches above the top of my UNRESTORED, practically perfect ,unblemished tank, taking pictures..was......and the judging sheet had repainted tank on it, but was scratched through before it was turned in......why was it even on there.......and as a side issue,how would one of you harley/Indian guys feel about someone holding an iPhone above your just restored or original tank....

Now, at oley, when I told MacMurray my bike has not been repainted and before the sheet was turned in, I asked him why he believes that. He said that the paint was missing the clearcoat and the metalflakes weren't right. I then asked, how he new the clearcoat was missing and he pointed to the "supersport" decal under the Honda tank badge saying the decal edges were too exposed which showed there was no clearcoat. I then asked what about the side covers and he said repainted also.......and that's when I knew he was absolutely wrong because the left side cover was purchased by me..from a honda dealer around 1996 or later...NOS...and yes I still have the other one.....and I told him that...and he turned his back on me and walked away....he wanted nothing to do with what I had to say.......luckily, as it turns out,the honda dealer I bought that cover from was there, he is an authority on hondas, informed me that honda didn't clearcoat until the 80's, ...I brought this info to the head amca people after the judging was over, they reversed the reduction.....and I thought the subject was closed..........how many times do I have to say that..........so all you people on here who say there were other ways to handle it.....well, I'm handling it this way now........

[jlh3rd]

They do make a sensor that can tell how many layers of paint are on an object.

Bring it on.....

[Adam M]

If someone was holding a phone 2 inches over my tank I'd say something to them....Adam

[exeric]

I'm sorry I replied to this thread. I empathized with you at first but now this is getting too public, and rather insulting. There are more dignified ways to handle problems like this.

[jlh3rd]

I'm sorry I replied to this thread. I empathized with you at first but now this is getting too public, and rather insulting. There are more dignified ways to handle problems like this.

Maybe your right.....but,now you see how I felt this past year....it became too public...and I was insulted.......

[Lonnie]

I agree, even though the judges are expected to have the judging complete within 20 minutes, there is no call to be rude. And, when you are part of a judging team that deducts points for a perceived flaw, only to have it overruled by the Chief Judge, that should be the end of it. If you end up on a judging team for the second time on that same bike there is no reason to state that the paint is incorrect when your original call was over ruled, it is done , so as a judge, get over it and focus your attention on some other aspect of the bike.

Re the paint, from what I have seen there are many more unrestored Japanese bikes out than what most of us Harley or Indian guys have seen, as Steve has noted. When an event has several dozen OP Japanese bikes show up, it is inconceivable to some that there could be that many still with OP. What some fail to consider is that, first of all, there were beaucoup produced, secondly many ended up set aside and stored, unmolested, by the original or second owners because their value was low for many years. Not only that, but my perspective is that the paint is of better quality than what the Harley guys are used to seeing. In fact, the overall quality of many of the Japanese bikes in the 70's was quite superior to what was coming out of Milwaukee and York.

This situation points out the need for getting more of the VJMC or other associated club members involved in AMCA judging. The intent, as we know, is to compare the bike to a model-specific standard. As the original paint bikes, like that of jlh3rd, gain value, the market for desired "correct" bikes will increase and prospective enthusiasts will want to be assured that the one they have in their garage is spot-on. Whether the bike is capable of wiining first or second in a beauty contest is of little value if you desire an original bike and there is no better place to establish that fact that at an AMCA National Meet.

my 2 cents.....

[wlwood]

For what it's worth, I had a friend who owned a 550F new at the time, in the metalflake orange paint, and I can still recall being amazed at the huge size of the metalflake. Yes, it made it look "orange-peely," and it certainly didn't look like any other factory paint I'd ever seen. Plus, there are no stripes of color accents. So I can see how someone might assume it was custom paint.

Anybody who wants to see John's bike will find it as one of the dozens of AMCA members' motorcycles in the 2015 AMCA calendar on sale now. You can find the order form on page 51 of the November/December issue of the AMCA magazine, which should be arriving in mailboxes now.

Bill Wood

[motorpickle]

John, I have read this thread twice now with the 24 hour rule inbetween. I am at a loss understanding what you want to accomplish with this post. It is difficult to judge a motorcycle in person so a generic description on the forum does not do the motorcycle (or you) justice. You have mentioned the points deduction in some of your posts. I would like to clarify this statement. As Chief Judge I took your word, as a member and an owner, that you had personal history details of this machine. In field decisions at Oley and Rhinebeck I removed all deductions in the paint category pertaining to your motorcycle. You received a Senior and Winners Circle award respectively. You and I worked together to resolve this issue. I attended all three meets where your machine was judged. I observed Pete MacMurray to be both professional and courteous when dealing with you and others. It was his assignment to look at and verify if a motorcycle had original paint in that judging category. Pete made no accusations against you or your motorcycle in direct statements or inference. Your motorcycle was treated no differently than any other machine with original paint, unless you count my overruling the judges. If your purpose is to "vent" and seek opinions, so be it. Please stop the personal attacks on Pete MacMurray or any other AMCA member, by name, using this forum.
Donald Dzurick
AMCA Chief Judge