Amca, vjmc, judging and accusations

[jlh3rd]

So
I've been a member of the vjmc off and on for some years, and joined the AMCA about a year ago Sept. 2013. I finally had the time to start showing my all original ,unrestored, 75 honda 550f...nothing special,, but a survivor bike I thought these organizations would appreciate me showing, and to experience the "camaraderie" and "appreciation" of all bikes. Well,here's what I've experienced at the three events I've attended. At the 2013 Chesapeake, some female judge asked me when I had the bike repainted....what?..it hasn't been....I let it go....but, I guess I should not have.
I then go to Oley,2014....and this is where I encountered "judge" Mr.Pete MacMurray who insisted that , yep, the tank and side covers were repainted. That's calling me a liar and a fraud. He wouldn't back off. But because there was a genuine honda expert there "however not a judge but highly respected" the deduction was reversed...........but this is not about points !
I then attended Rhinebeck 2014. Well, guess who's running the vjmc section, Mr. MacMurray. He decided to double down and asked me if had taken some 600 grit sandpaper yet and sanded my tank down. And he's a judge? In national motorcycle organizations ? And he says this in front of other enthusiasts there....basically calling me a liar and a fraud again. This was Fri. evening. On Sat., not one judge talked to me or asked me any questions during the time they looked at my bike,or even intruduced themselves and I was not ten feet away...hm, I wonder why..even one judge was heard to comment that "the owner was right over there" . Another so called judge earlier in the day who was assisting MacMurray had his iPhone not 2 inches from the top of my tank taking pictures. I wonder how he woulda felt if I was holding some metal apparatus right over the top of his restored Kawa 900....he did comment that the paint job was a nice "custom" job.....should I mention the guy who helped unload my bike on Fri., who went on an on about my bike, said he was helping the vjmc guys and bring my bike here.....who didn't say squat to me the next day?....gee, I wonder why......
So this is the camaraderie, quality judging, and friendly atmosphere I was told is what the AMCA and VJMC is all about. Basically singling me out as a liar and fraud, and so called judges who don't know the bikes and won't admit when they're wrong.......
I've waited a while to say anything......I usually do before I act.......so I said it now....don't call me a liar and a fraud....and...no, I'm not quitting....just disillusioned and disappointed.....but, hey, great magazines.

John Harrington

[BoschZEV]

my all original ,unrestored, 75 honda 550f...

Just to be clear, you bought this bike yourself new from the dealer in 1975, not from a friend who himself had previously purchased it from the dealer?

[exeric]

John, I have a beat-up '74 550 Honda that I love, so I can appreciate the emergence of Hondas to the AMCA. My first experience with AMCA judging was with a 1940 Indian Chief that I had restored. I had the same inconsiderate, vocal, indiscreet type of judge. I entered with the expectation of good natured criticism that I could constructively use to improve my motorcycle. That experience still bothers me a bit, but I have chalked it up to an ego-maniac judge that may have known Indians, but nothing about the spirit of our great hobby, and the mission of AMCA judging. I have since had my Hendersons, and Excelsiors judged and the experience was considerably better because the judges were much more objective, and open to other opinions. My advice to you is; get involved with AMCA judging and use your knowledge to be a good judge for other people who want to enter their Hondas. The original motivation to have judging in the AMCA was to get members to bring out their motorcycles for everyone to enjoy. Don't let one jerk ruin that for you, and other AMCA members.

[Steve Slocombe]

Dear John, I usually judge Harleys but sat in with the Japanese teams a couple of times because I thought they were not as knowledgeable as we were. I found extremely knowledgeable judges, plus a lot more unrestored bikes than I'm used to seeing, that show how they were originally put together. Paint is a difficult area and judges should always be polite. You do not have to stand on the sidelines, but can sign up as an Apprentice and join the judging team. You can even be in the team judging your own bike if you don't get into a fight. How about if the judges miss a fault you know is on your bike? Do you speak up or keep quiet? Welcome to the world of having humans judge motorcycles for no money, just the love of our hobby. I'd stay with it, read the on-line judging manuals, and see if you want to appeal. Remember it is the owner not the judges who has to prove an item is correct.

[bikerdds]

John, sending you a private message.

[vph-d]

I believe the team captain is supposed to be available to answer questions from any bike's owner after the judging period is completed. Discussing deductions during the judging makes it nearly impossible to complete the judging in the suggested 20 minute time frame. Personally, I think 20 minutes is not enough time to judge a first time bike, but works for bikes previously judged.
I've run into a few judges with overdeveloped egos, but the great majority are good people concerned about the validity of the deductions they note on the judging sheets. In any case,
all judges should be polite to everyone.
VPH-D

[jlh3rd]

Just to be clear, you bought this bike yourself new from the dealer in 1975, not from a friend who himself had previously purchased it from the dealer?

Bosch
No, I didn't,..but I know where you're going with this.....so......
I purchased the bike in 1994....I'm the third owner. Since all this started I began researching the two previous owners, found them, they are still local, I have there current addresses and phone numbers and I contacted them....understand, they have no dog in the fight, and both owners said absolutely no damage,wrecks,or repaint on the bike. The last owner said he's sorry he sold it....so there's that.
Nobody back in the day with most of these bikes repainted anything as a restoration.....if they were repainted,it was because they wanted a different color than stock...no one cared to restore them, they either languished in a corner of a garage, or had the hell road out of them, sold off and forgotten....remember, I said most....Honda didn't have paint codes for these bikes, honda had their paints and their dealers could paint parts,...but if you needed a honda colored part you went down to the honda dealership and ordered your already painted part from japan......nobody really started caring about restoring these bikes until around the mid nineties....there were certainly very few companies even dealing with these hondas as, mainly because, like I said, you went down and ordered your part...which of course is not a restoration.....
Last, and certainly least,...I bought a 76 550f ,brand new , back in the day....and, since I was twelve, I have messed with engines ,bikes, cars, planes, boats, etc. and repaints ,and originals....and it's possible to develope a second nature of telling when a paint job is original..( my dad was a used car dealer ).....I have come across numerous articles and my own personal observations , and no one can duplicate exactly an original factory paint job.....either the overspray is not right, or too smooth etc., etc........pull my tank and look at the underside.....anyone who knows these bikes can tell it is no repaint.......
So....yes...I know this bike has not been repainted.........

[jlh3rd]

John, I have a beat-up '74 550 Honda that I love, so I can appreciate the emergence of Hondas to the AMCA. My first experience with AMCA judging was with a 1940 Indian Chief that I had restored. I had the same inconsiderate, vocal, indiscreet type of judge. I entered with the expectation of good natured criticism that I could constructively use to improve my motorcycle. That experience still bothers me a bit, but I have chalked it up to an ego-maniac judge that may have known Indians, but nothing about the spirit of our great hobby, and the mission of AMCA judging. I have since had my Hendersons, and Excelsiors judged and the experience was considerably better because the judges were much more objective, and open to other opinions. My advice to you is; get involved with AMCA judging and use your knowledge to be a good judge for other people who want to enter their Hondas. The original motivation to have judging in the AMCA was to get members to bring out their motorcycles for everyone to enjoy. Don't let one jerk ruin that for you, and other AMCA members.

It won't....that's why I'm not quitting.....like most people do....

[jlh3rd]

Dear John, I usually judge Harleys but sat in with the Japanese teams a couple of times because I thought they were not as knowledgeable as we were. I found extremely knowledgeable judges, plus a lot more unrestored bikes than I'm used to seeing, that show how they were originally put together. Paint is a difficult area and judges should always be polite. You do not have to stand on the sidelines, but can sign up as an Apprentice and join the judging team. You can even be in the team judging your own bike if you don't get into a fight. How about if the judges miss a fault you know is on your bike? Do you speak up or keep quiet? Welcome to the world of having humans judge motorcycles for no money, just the love of our hobby. I'd stay with it, read the on-line judging manuals, and see if you want to appeal. Remember it is the owner not the judges who has to prove an item is correct.

Steve...Thanks for responding
Read my post again....there's nothing to appeal.......this is not about points.......Mr MacMurray' s original point reduction was overturned at oley.......but he double downed at rhinebeck, in front of others and, in my opinion, behind my back,........if you talked to me about my bike and I told you it was unrestored and original ( except for tires at that time)....and later you heard a judge say it's been repainted, what would you think of me..........would you even talk to me the next day.....probably not.......

[jlh3rd]

I believe the team captain is supposed to be available to answer questions from any bike's owner after the judging period is completed. Discussing deductions during the judging makes it nearly impossible to complete the judging in the suggested 20 minute time frame. Personally, I think 20 minutes is not enough time to judge a first time bike, but works for bikes previously judged.
I've run into a few judges with overdeveloped egos, but the great majority are good people concerned about the validity of the deductions they note on the judging sheets. In any case,
all judges should be polite to everyone.
VPH-D

IF Mr. MacMurray had not "double downed" at rhinebeck.....in front of others.....I would not have made my post

[BoschZEV]

I purchased the bike in 1994....I'm the third owner. ... both owners said absolutely no damage,wrecks,or repaint on the bike... So....yes...I know this bike has not been repainted...

I've never seen your bike so you very well may be completely correct that it has the same paint job that it left the factory with 40 years ago. However, having said that...

Even when an original owner still has the bike he bought from a shop himself it's still possible it isn't "factory original." For example, a part may have been damaged in transit to the dealer and replaced with one from the previous year's model that he happened to have in stock, with the buyer none the wiser that a swap had been made. Or, the owner himself may have replaced something many years ago and forgotten that he did so.

Ideally, judges would be so knowledgeable about every detail on every bike made 40+ years ago that they would recognize such discrepancies with unfailing accuracy. And, ideally, judges would be diplomatic enough to be able to politely explain to disappointed entrants why he was removing points despite the entrants' firm opinions that the judge is wrong.

Again, I have no knowledge of your particular machine. I'm only commenting on a situation I have seen first-hand enough times in the past to know that not all "factory original" machines are, despite the quite sincere beliefs of some owners.

[jlh3rd]

I've never seen your bike so you very well may be completely correct that it has the same paint job that it left the factory with 40 years ago. However, having said that...

Even when an original owner still has the bike he bought from a shop himself it's still possible it isn't "factory original." For example, a part may have been damaged in transit to the dealer and replaced with one from the previous year's model that he happened to have in stock, with the buyer none the wiser that a swap had been made. Or, the owner himself may have replaced something many years ago and forgotten that he did so.

Ideally, judges would be so knowledgeable about every detail on every bike made 40+ years ago that they would recognize such discrepancies with unfailing accuracy. And, ideally, judges would be diplomatic enough to be able to politely explain to disappointed entrants why he was removing points despite the entrants' firm opinions that the judge is wrong.

Again, I have no knowledge of your particular machine. I'm only commenting on a situation I have seen first-hand enough times in the past to know that not all "factory original" machines are, despite the quite sincere beliefs of some owners.

You are correct...up to a point..and my limited exposure to this hobby has shown that to be more so with older Indians and harleys.......of which I know nothing.
Honda is a little easier to prove concerning what your saying, especially for the 70's when these sales took off...
1975 was the first 550f......two colors only....sunrise metaflake Orange (mine) and a solid blue...........1976 was a metalflake blue and a solid orange.....all matching side covers.......there's been no swap
But, like most posts, we're starting to get off subject....the bike has not been repainted, there were no points deducted after all was said and done at oley......., but the accusation continued at rhinebeck....after I thought it was over and done... even though he took no direct part in judging.......Ok...it's not about judging, it's about inferring that I am misrepresenting my bike and making that known in the presence of others.....and,with no direct proof but knowing human nature, it appears that is what is conveyed to others behind my back.......

[mcarver]

About 12 years ago I bought a 1975 CB550F that was numbered something like #17 on the vin and assembled in late '74. It had just over 1500 miles and I bought it from the widow of the original owner. It was 100% original (even tires) and had always been stored indoors.... paint was metalflake orange and had some very minor orange peel on it on the tank sides. I never had it judged but you would not believe how many "experts" told me that it was repainted (see orange peel) and / or that Honda never offered orange metal flake (or any metal flake from some know it alls)! I do regret selling that bike as I rode it a bit for a couple of years and it was small and a lot of fun, but it went to a former co-worker and I think he has enjoyed it since. I say try to take it in stride as you are aware of the facts. Anyone can spout their opinion.... but it's your motorcycle and you can enjoy it.

[Chuck#1848]

You are correct...up to a point..and my limited exposure to this hobby has shown that to be more so with older Indians and harleys.......of which I know nothing.
Honda is a little easier to prove concerning what your saying, especially for the 70's when these sales took off...
1975 was the first 550f......two colors only....sunrise metaflake Orange (mine) and a solid blue...........1976 was a metalflake blue and a solid orange.....all matching side covers.......there's been no swap
But, like most posts, we're starting to get off subject....the bike has not been repainted, there were no points deducted after all was said and done at oley......., but the accusation continued at rhinebeck....after I thought it was over and done... even though he took no direct part in judging.......Ok...it's not about judging, it's about inferring that I am misrepresenting my bike and making that known in the presence of others.....and,with no direct proof but knowing human nature, it appears that is what is conveyed to others behind my back.......

jlh3rd,

I personally don't care to ever have one of my bikes judged........cause they would get pecked apart......but I could understand your "frustration" with his behind the scenes discussions.....that being said.......why not just confront HIM and ask for HIS proof of the replaced/repainted parts in question as to what makes HIM think it has been who knows you both may learn something.

My newest soon to be antique is a 1980 Honda Twin Star second owner, and yes original paint with 786 miles on it still has the change oil sticker at 600 miles on the speedo, may bring it to Oley in April

Just my 2 1/2 cents

[jlh3rd]

About 12 years ago I bought a 1975 CB550F that was numbered something like #17 on the vin and assembled in late '74. It had just over 1500 miles and I bought it from the widow of the original owner. It was 100% original (even tires) and had always been stored indoors.... paint was metalflake orange and had some very minor orange peel on it on the tank sides. I never had it judged but you would not believe how many "experts" told me that it was repainted (see orange peel) and / or that Honda never offered orange metal flake (or any metal flake from some know it alls)! I do regret selling that bike as I rode it a bit for a couple of years and it was small and a lot of fun, but it went to a former co-worker and I think he has enjoyed it since. I say try to take it in stride as you are aware of the facts. Anyone can spout their opinion.... but it's your motorcycle and you can enjoy it.

Nice that you made this post....and now that you did, you mentioned one of the so called questions , the orange peel,..so....here's the answer...from an archived article about the 550f obtained from...if I'm not mistaken....and are you reading Mr. MacMurray....the vjmc....I quote
"The color on ours was a brassy orange, and we suspect there's a lot of the old orange-peel effect on the surface but can't be sure because the metal flakes in the paint are so coarse they produce a textured effect all by themselves." "Luckily the 550f also comes in blue, and that color is at least half way decent".....unquote