1920 Harley Model F

[TechNoir]

According to Robert Burns: The best-laid schemes of mice and men often go awry. And for me, today was no exception. My van decided to have an issue that took a bit of time to deal with and then a friend came round so it was well after lunch before my attention turned to the 20F.

Offline exeric had contacted me and pointed to a Schebler rebuild that he had done which was a great help.

So I made an fixture with an 8 degree angle on it to put a chamfer on the new butterfly and then turned a new disc. At this point I will note that it was Eric that put me on to this and Eric tells me that it was Cotton who told him.



That was the easy bit. As Eric mentioned with his carb, the disc went in and out loads and loads of times to get the best fit. Ideally I think the carb would benefit from being honed as the bore is not exactly circular. However its not too bad so will stay as it is for now.

I decided to re-use the spindle, partly because Eric mentioned that a new one that he once made was a ton of work and partly because the one I have fits reasonably well. I used the two existing screw holes to align the throttle disc. I found some brass No6 screws that I had forgotten about so my plan is to use these but because I am a bit worried about the engine sucking one in I plan to solder them in and also solder the disc to the spindle. The screws are needed to fill the holes in the disc/spindle.

Tonights question is regarding how to solder he disc in. I have a soldering iron that is too small plus one that is ironically too big (500w and 1 inch diameter). I have a couple of blow torches but they would heat up everything too much. I have oxy-propane which might work with care (acetylene is a lot of hassle in the UK as insurers don't like it in home workshops).

I think that maybe an old style iron that you heat up in a flame might also be OK.

What do people with experience with these carbs recommend?


John

[T. Cotten]

..At this point I will note that it was Eric that put me on to this and Eric tells me that it was Cotton who told him...

Bless whoever told me, Folks!

...Cotten
PS: Bert Sweat, creator of the "Sweatster".

[exeric]

I think that maybe an old style iron that you heat up in a flame might also be OK. John

The old type copper 'iron' is what I use for most all of my soldering. I made a cradle that will hold the iron while it is heated by the ubiquitous Bernzo-Matic propane torch. I have found many irons at garage sales, and flea markets, and also made my own for specific chores.

[Steve Swan]

Would a butane micro torch work. i love my PowerProbe Micro Torch. https://www.powerprobetek.com/product/micro-torch/

[TechNoir]

The old type copper 'iron' is what I use for most all of my soldering. I made a cradle that will hold the iron while it is heated by the ubiquitous Bernzo-Matic propane torch. I have found many irons at garage sales, and flea markets, and also made my own for specific chores.

Just after I posted that I bought one on ebay for £4.00 including shipping. That is a pointed one. I have some copper bar so will also make a chisel point one and see how I go.

Would a butane micro torch work. i love my PowerProbe Micro Torch. https://www.powerprobetek.com/product/micro-torch/

Maybe. I did think about it but the problem is air. If that torch needs to suck air from its surroundings it might be flaky using it inside the carb bore.

My oxy propane torch might work better but I would need to be careful. (Note I have soft soldered with oxy-acytelene before now so I am not averse to it but that was on something that wasn't 100 years old)

First stop will be an old style Iron.

John

[T. Cotten]

Would a butane micro torch work. i love my PowerProbe Micro Torch. https://www.powerprobetek.com/product/micro-torch/

I use a torch, Steve!

But my Henrob produces a very precise flame.

....Cotten

[TechNoir]

Cotten that torch looks great and as you point out has a very precise flame. I will look into getting something similar.

My oxy-propane is too much so I am ruling it out.

I am going to try a copper iron. I only had a bit of time tonight so I gathered the items together to make a suitable iron and made a start on making one. Whilst that is going on in the background I will rewind a couple of weeks and update on the exhaust.



Fitting the exhaust should have been simple. I had repaired the silencer ages ago but the "new" header pipes that came with the bike were not right, they were a bit too small in diameter and so they were a loose fit in the collector plus the bends were not quite right (although this was mitigated by the play in the fit in the collector).

The original headers were rusted into pieces.

Some time in 2017 SWBO had a business trip to the USA so I arranged for new headers from an American supplier to be delivered to her hotel so she could bring them back and avoid the crazy high shipping and import taxes. I dug them out and I knew that they were too long but that's not a problem as they can be easily trimmed. Comparing them to the "old" ones the bends were slightly different and so I was hopeful. Also the diameter was right for a snug fit in the collector so all seemed well.








I fitted the rear pipe first, trimming it a bit at a time and then trying it for fit, it took ages to get it exactly right. However the front pipe was wrong. The bend was right to make the ends line up with where they were supposed to go but there was a problem at the top end. I pondered my options and then opted to cut the flared section off and, using a bit trimmed off the other end, glued a piece into the gap.








John

[TechNoir]

Earlier this week I made an "Iron" and I made an attempt at soldering the butterfly.



It was reasonably successful although not very neat which is unusual for me as I usually pride myself on neat soldering. Having read cottons post above I ordered a cheap (£4 inc shipping) pencil type blow torch and also a Dremel torch kit, both of which arrived at about midday today.

The pencil type one did exactly what I expected in that it went out the instant it went near the bore of the carb. The Dremel was slightly better in that I could get it in certain positions without it going out although it was also sensitive to going out if I went in a bit too far. The Dremel is actually better than I had expected.



Anyway I have the butterfly secure and in the right place but the solder doesn't look great so I have opted not to post a picture. If I did another of these Schebler carb's I think I would make a much better job as I have learnt a lot.


With the carb together the next thing I did was a bubble test.



Then I mounted the carb and got everything connected. I was still not 100% happy with the action and after playing about for a little while I came to the conclusion that the cable needs a clamp closer to the carb to remove the flex in it between the front tube and the sleeve. So I made a secondary clamp as per the pic. I am not sure if anyone else has done this or if people have done it and it has turned out to be a bad idea? However it hasn't changed any original parts and is 100% removable. It has however made a significant improvement to the throttle action.



With that done I fitted the tanks and finished for the day. I have some errands tomorrow morning but will get back to this at about lunchtime all things being equal so I just dropped everything where it was as I can tidy up tomorrow. The last thing I did was take this picture as I was leaving the garage.



More tomorrow.

John

[T. Cotten]

Did you solder the friction washer to the throttledisc, too, John?

Any estimate of the time required?
(Just so I know how to charge fairly...)

If you didn't melt the solder around the needle valve guide, you did fine.

....Cotten

[TechNoir]

Did you solder the friction washer to the throttle disc, too, John?....Cotten

Hmm, no. was I supposed to? At this stage it would not be difficult to solder the disc.

Any estimate of the time required?
(Just so I know how to charge fairly...)....Cotten

It took me ages but that was because it was my first time and I have not had ANY prior Schebler experience. I reckon that if I did another half a dozen or so I could do a good job in half a day if I were doing it for a business. But that would be assuming I had already made various jigs and fixtures and had some additional tooling and much more space.

If you didn't melt the solder around the needle valve guide, you did fine.....Cotten

Another Hmm. I didn't check that. I don't think I did melt it but now I need to check it. I guess that will be first job tomorrow.

John

[T. Cotten]

Half a day!

I could make a living charging four hours.

Sad but true, it does take that long.

....Cotten
PS: Yeah, better solder the friction washer. But not much if you can..
Its included in the flat rate.

[TechNoir]

Thanks cotten, I will go back to the washer before I move on.

Regarding the age old question of cost and value, if you look back at post #67 in this thread (page 7) you will see that the PO paid a guy to rebuild the engine, gearbox, magneto and carb. the bill, in todays money, was about $12k and I am not sure if anyone would want to pay that now. I am certain that the $ represented the time taken but people these days would probably balk at that sort of bill.

Half a day to do the butterfly is my estimate on the assumption that there were a few to do and you got good at them but thinking about it I am not so sure how many Schebler "H" carbs one could expect to come through the door in an average year. Certainly in the UK there would be very few so I am not about to change career.


John

[T. Cotten]

I'm fighting nine on the bench right now, John,..

And they are winning.

...Cotten

[TechNoir]

I'm fighting nine on the bench right now, John,..

Maybe there is a future for me as the European arm of Cotten Enterprises?

John

[TechNoir]

Rewinding a couple of weeks, I needed to repair one of the footboards. The original footboards are badly corroded:



but I have another pair in better condition. These are 1916 boards as they have a few remnants of grey paint and no rivet holes. One board however had had a horrible repair where they are riveted to the pivot arms so some time last year I had repaired it and so now I just needed to fix them to the pivots and then glue the NOS rubbers on.







On to today

I took some time to fettle the carb and then set to finding and fitting the last few small parts. Te sun was out so I blew up the tyres and moved it outside.

The right tank had previously been stripped to bare metal and repaired. I obviously didn't want to leave it bare metal so I have painted it and started to add fauxtina. It is not designed to try to fool anyone but just to make the tank not look too new. I have left the various dents and I will probably add to the fauxtina as I go, certainly the decals are still too bright. The left tank has been left red. I know it is the "wrong" colour but I actually quite like it.

At some point I might fit the original tanks just to see how they look.










I still need to go through the bike and check everything and make any necessary adjustments and then add fluids and see if it will spring to life. This will happen in the next week or so so watch this space.

John