1920 Harley Model F

[T. Cotten]

Half a day!

I could make a living charging four hours.

Sad but true, it does take that long.

....Cotten
PS: Yeah, better solder the friction washer. But not much if you can..
Its included in the flat rate.

[TechNoir]

Did you solder the friction washer to the throttle disc, too, John?....Cotten

Hmm, no. was I supposed to? At this stage it would not be difficult to solder the disc.

Any estimate of the time required?
(Just so I know how to charge fairly...)....Cotten

It took me ages but that was because it was my first time and I have not had ANY prior Schebler experience. I reckon that if I did another half a dozen or so I could do a good job in half a day if I were doing it for a business. But that would be assuming I had already made various jigs and fixtures and had some additional tooling and much more space.

If you didn't melt the solder around the needle valve guide, you did fine.....Cotten

Another Hmm. I didn't check that. I don't think I did melt it but now I need to check it. I guess that will be first job tomorrow.

John

[T. Cotten]

Did you solder the friction washer to the throttledisc, too, John?

Any estimate of the time required?
(Just so I know how to charge fairly...)

If you didn't melt the solder around the needle valve guide, you did fine.

....Cotten

[TechNoir]

Earlier this week I made an "Iron" and I made an attempt at soldering the butterfly.



It was reasonably successful although not very neat which is unusual for me as I usually pride myself on neat soldering. Having read cottons post above I ordered a cheap (£4 inc shipping) pencil type blow torch and also a Dremel torch kit, both of which arrived at about midday today.

The pencil type one did exactly what I expected in that it went out the instant it went near the bore of the carb. The Dremel was slightly better in that I could get it in certain positions without it going out although it was also sensitive to going out if I went in a bit too far. The Dremel is actually better than I had expected.



Anyway I have the butterfly secure and in the right place but the solder doesn't look great so I have opted not to post a picture. If I did another of these Schebler carb's I think I would make a much better job as I have learnt a lot.


With the carb together the next thing I did was a bubble test.



Then I mounted the carb and got everything connected. I was still not 100% happy with the action and after playing about for a little while I came to the conclusion that the cable needs a clamp closer to the carb to remove the flex in it between the front tube and the sleeve. So I made a secondary clamp as per the pic. I am not sure if anyone else has done this or if people have done it and it has turned out to be a bad idea? However it hasn't changed any original parts and is 100% removable. It has however made a significant improvement to the throttle action.



With that done I fitted the tanks and finished for the day. I have some errands tomorrow morning but will get back to this at about lunchtime all things being equal so I just dropped everything where it was as I can tidy up tomorrow. The last thing I did was take this picture as I was leaving the garage.



More tomorrow.

John

[TechNoir]

Cotten that torch looks great and as you point out has a very precise flame. I will look into getting something similar.

My oxy-propane is too much so I am ruling it out.

I am going to try a copper iron. I only had a bit of time tonight so I gathered the items together to make a suitable iron and made a start on making one. Whilst that is going on in the background I will rewind a couple of weeks and update on the exhaust.



Fitting the exhaust should have been simple. I had repaired the silencer ages ago but the "new" header pipes that came with the bike were not right, they were a bit too small in diameter and so they were a loose fit in the collector plus the bends were not quite right (although this was mitigated by the play in the fit in the collector).

The original headers were rusted into pieces.

Some time in 2017 SWBO had a business trip to the USA so I arranged for new headers from an American supplier to be delivered to her hotel so she could bring them back and avoid the crazy high shipping and import taxes. I dug them out and I knew that they were too long but that's not a problem as they can be easily trimmed. Comparing them to the "old" ones the bends were slightly different and so I was hopeful. Also the diameter was right for a snug fit in the collector so all seemed well.








I fitted the rear pipe first, trimming it a bit at a time and then trying it for fit, it took ages to get it exactly right. However the front pipe was wrong. The bend was right to make the ends line up with where they were supposed to go but there was a problem at the top end. I pondered my options and then opted to cut the flared section off and, using a bit trimmed off the other end, glued a piece into the gap.








John

[T. Cotten]

Would a butane micro torch work. i love my PowerProbe Micro Torch. https://www.powerprobetek.com/product/micro-torch/

I use a torch, Steve!

But my Henrob produces a very precise flame.

....Cotten

[TechNoir]

The old type copper 'iron' is what I use for most all of my soldering. I made a cradle that will hold the iron while it is heated by the ubiquitous Bernzo-Matic propane torch. I have found many irons at garage sales, and flea markets, and also made my own for specific chores.

Just after I posted that I bought one on ebay for £4.00 including shipping. That is a pointed one. I have some copper bar so will also make a chisel point one and see how I go.

Would a butane micro torch work. i love my PowerProbe Micro Torch. https://www.powerprobetek.com/product/micro-torch/

Maybe. I did think about it but the problem is air. If that torch needs to suck air from its surroundings it might be flaky using it inside the carb bore.

My oxy propane torch might work better but I would need to be careful. (Note I have soft soldered with oxy-acytelene before now so I am not averse to it but that was on something that wasn't 100 years old)

First stop will be an old style Iron.

John

[Steve Swan]

Would a butane micro torch work. i love my PowerProbe Micro Torch. https://www.powerprobetek.com/product/micro-torch/

[exeric]

I think that maybe an old style iron that you heat up in a flame might also be OK. John

The old type copper 'iron' is what I use for most all of my soldering. I made a cradle that will hold the iron while it is heated by the ubiquitous Bernzo-Matic propane torch. I have found many irons at garage sales, and flea markets, and also made my own for specific chores.

[T. Cotten]

..At this point I will note that it was Eric that put me on to this and Eric tells me that it was Cotton who told him...

Bless whoever told me, Folks!

...Cotten
PS: Bert Sweat, creator of the "Sweatster".

[TechNoir]

According to Robert Burns: The best-laid schemes of mice and men often go awry. And for me, today was no exception. My van decided to have an issue that took a bit of time to deal with and then a friend came round so it was well after lunch before my attention turned to the 20F.

Offline exeric had contacted me and pointed to a Schebler rebuild that he had done which was a great help.

So I made an fixture with an 8 degree angle on it to put a chamfer on the new butterfly and then turned a new disc. At this point I will note that it was Eric that put me on to this and Eric tells me that it was Cotton who told him.



That was the easy bit. As Eric mentioned with his carb, the disc went in and out loads and loads of times to get the best fit. Ideally I think the carb would benefit from being honed as the bore is not exactly circular. However its not too bad so will stay as it is for now.

I decided to re-use the spindle, partly because Eric mentioned that a new one that he once made was a ton of work and partly because the one I have fits reasonably well. I used the two existing screw holes to align the throttle disc. I found some brass No6 screws that I had forgotten about so my plan is to use these but because I am a bit worried about the engine sucking one in I plan to solder them in and also solder the disc to the spindle. The screws are needed to fill the holes in the disc/spindle.

Tonights question is regarding how to solder he disc in. I have a soldering iron that is too small plus one that is ironically too big (500w and 1 inch diameter). I have a couple of blow torches but they would heat up everything too much. I have oxy-propane which might work with care (acetylene is a lot of hassle in the UK as insurers don't like it in home workshops).

I think that maybe an old style iron that you heat up in a flame might also be OK.

What do people with experience with these carbs recommend?


John

[TechNoir]

Cotten, thanks for the feedback and comments.

I have some family "duties" to do tomorrow so will have some time to ponder and decide on a plan (2 hour drive each way)

I will put the plan into action on Sunday and let you know how it goes.

John.

[T. Cotten]

Damn, John!

I had hoped you had found a Schebler Rosetta Stone.

It is our fear that the lack of cut-out upon the parts book's discs implies you must cut it.
I do.

Brass is certainly the friendliest material for a replacement disc, but its up to you.
Yes, most need one. Until you mock it up to inspect for 'daylight', its anybody's guess.

I use solder because not only is it the most convenient, it is the way they were. (except yours...)

If, after cleaning, your throttleshaft 'spindle' still fits so sweetly, there is little reason not to use it.
Especially after somebody went to so much trouble.

...Cotten

[TechNoir]

Hi Cotton, the second document isn't exactly a "manual" but more of a parts list with some additional words added. Its "The Schebler Carburettor - Indian H" I found it online a while ago and the images of the parts are much clearer than the copy of The Service Station Manual that I have but the Service Station manual is obviously more comprehensive. I am pretty sure that you have this document already.

I took the butterfly and spindle out today. I measured the play in the spindle using a tenths indicator and have about 0.0025" in the position as per this image.



The spindle looks OK although having only ever seen one Schebler carb in my life I don't have a baseline to compare to.



The butterfly has a cutout as per the arrow but it seems to be required to clear the part marked with an arrow in the bore of the carb.





The top of the carb where the washer goes doesn't seem too bad.




Questions.

The manual shows a butterfly with no cutout. Is this right for this carb or do I need the notch?

I assume brass is OK for a replacement butterfly if I need one?

How should I fix the butterfly to the spindle? Screws? Solder? Loctite? Something else? If screws I will need to re-tap one of them.

If something else should I make a new spindle?

John

[T. Cotten]

I have now had chance to study both the Service Station manual and also another Schebler manual that I have.....
John

You have something different, John?

Care to share it?

....Cotten