3 Speed w/ Reverse

[JSB55]

Back to working on the 3 speed for my Servi Car, following the exquisitely detailed post here by "PA". Got my clearances, end play, etc all dialed in, and at the point of putting the side cover on for the final time. It fought me a bit as "PA" suggested it would, but the cover is on. Everything spins easily, shifter clutches engage the gears nicely, so all seems good to go until I get to testing the kicker, which isn't really discussed in the post by "PA", unless I somehow missed it.

I have the Countershaft rotated so the notch is at 12 O'clock, as it would be with the kicker at rest. When I rotate the shaft counter clockwise, at about 1/8th turn, it clicks, and the cluster gear engages and turns the main drive gear and clutch hub. As the notch nears 6 O'clock, the shaft moves slightly and clicks and the cluster and main gears disengage. All good so far. I continue turning counterclockwise until the notch is a bit past 6 O'clock, which is where it would be on a good follow through kick. Now I turn the shaft Clockwise, as it would when the spring works to bring the kicker back up to 12 O'clock. On the return stroke, the cluster gear stays disengaged from the main drive gear until the notch on the shaft gets to around 8 O'Clock, at which point it clicks, and the Cluster gear engages again with the main drive gear, but now wants to turn it the opposite direction, which would effectively be fighting the rotation of the engine. At about 11 O'Clock, it clicks again and disengages the gears and turns easily back to where the notch is again at 12 O'Clock.

Logic tells me something is wrong in there, and I need to tear it down and start over, unless that is normal behavior. I'm sure both springs are in there, and I *thought* I had the kicker gear correctly under the tripper bolts before I put the rest of the countershaft cluster in. Per PA's directions, I left the Countershaft with the notch facing down until I had the cover on and secured, at which point PA said to turn it to have the notch facing up.

Enlighten me, please. Is this normal, or is something messed up? Kind of thinking I didn't fully engage the kicker gear with the trippers, after all.

[JSB55]

Took it all apart thinking I had not gotten the kicker gear AKA starter clutch engaged with the Tripper Bolts, but it looked good. Took that off anyway, and reinstalled it, making sure with a mirror and flashlight that the ramps on the kicker gear are both fully behind the Tripper Bolts. Put the whole thing back together, and no change. It still wants to turn the clutch gear AKA main drive gear backwards on the "return" stroke (i.e., kicker arm returning to 12 O'Clock), instead of making a ratcheting sound and not moving the clutch gear.

Only thing I can think of to try next is to go back to the original springs, instead of the new ones I got from 45restoration(dot)com. Also put in all new spacers, thrust washers, etc, but measured and cross referenced every single one with both the parts book and the detailed instructions posted by PA.

Anybody who knows this mechanism better than I, please chime in.

[Rubone]

Take the seal off the shaft and see if it works. I have seen AM seals that are too tight for the countershaft to position properly.

[JSB55]

Thanks, Robbie. I'll try that if my current solution doesn't work.

Talked to the guys at 45restoration(dot)com today. The older guy, who has worked on these for years, said this was a "first". He suggested I swap out the tiny spring that goes in the end of the countershaft, and do whatever it took to replace the tripper bolts, which I had not done, since I couldn't get them out of there. Heat, liberal application of Kroil, and several hours of waiting finally allowed one to come out normally. The other had to be drilled out, and to my amazement, I got it dead center with a hand drill. Sure enough, both were badly worn. Photo below.

[Rubone]

Thanks, Robbie. I'll try that if my current solution doesn't work.

Talked to the guys at 45restoration(dot)com today. The older guy, who has worked on these for years, said this was a "first". He suggested I swap out the tiny spring that goes in the end of the countershaft, and do whatever it took to replace the tripper bolts, which I had not done, since I couldn't get them out of there. Heat, liberal application of Kroil, and several hours of waiting finally allowed one to come out normally. The other had to be drilled out, and to my amazement, I got it dead center with a hand drill. Sure enough, both were badly worn. Photo below.

With worn tripper bolts the standard procedure is to rotate them 90 degrees and you have a whole new wear area. Unless they have already been rotated once!

[JSB55]

With worn tripper bolts the standard procedure is to rotate them 90 degrees and you have a whole new wear area. Unless they have already been rotated once!

I had that thought when I got the one out intact, but the other had either been pushed too far through the case and then hit with a hammer, or had something welded onto the end of it, such that it was mushroomed and keeping the nut from turning to get it out. In any case, I had ordered new ones when I got new gaskets, seals, crush washers, etc a couple months back, so I had two fresh ones on hand. Use 'em if ya got 'em.

[JSB55]

Well, new tripper bolts, and back to the original springs, but no change. As soon as I turn the shaft clockwise, it begins to back out slightly, loudly releases from the trippers, and turns the clutch gear backwards. As the notch on the shaft gets to around 10 or 11 o'clock, the shaft moves in a bit, engages the trippers, and comes free from the clutch gear. Exact mirror image of what it does when turned counterclockwise, which mimics someone kicking it.

Tried Robbie's suggestion of omitting the rubber o ring on the countershaft, and also tried operating it with the side cover visibly loose, and also with nothing but the countershaft and clutch gear in the case. Nothing changes.

With it all apart, if I mesh the kicker and cluster gears, rotating in one direction (tooth face to tooth face) makes them lock in. Rotating the other direction (ramp facing ramp) the kicker gear wants to "hop" from one tooth to the next (as it should). No visible defects on either, and the spherical ramps on the kicker gear look fine. Gotta be something to do with the springs, or not enough end play, even though there is no specified endplay for a countershaft.

I'm stumped, and at a loss for what to do or try next.

[Architect]

PA, (Paul's) write up is excellent, but I do not believe he addressed 3 with reverse. Not even sure if that has anything to do with the kicker working properly.

I had issue with lack of engagement, moving away form aftermarket parts and using NOS helped.

I suggest you give Ralph Camp a call from Ralph's Racing, also a member on this forum. Expert level advice from a really nice gentlemen.

[RCamp]

JSB55,
I wish that I had seen this post earlier, I could have saved you a lot of grief. Your transmission is doing what it supposed to.

When the starter clutch is not engaged with the tripper bolts, the starter clutch spring is applying pressure to the starter clutch.

The cluster gear turns in the same direction as the counter shaft, and the clutch gear turns in the opposite direction.

The teeth on the starter clutch and in the cluster gear are ramped on their backside.

If you hold the clutch gear so that it can't turn while turning the counter shaft clockwise, you will hear and feel the starter clutch ratcheting as it would when
tranny is installed in bike with primary chain installed.

Hope this helps.

[JSB55]

JSB55,
I wish that I had seen this post earlier, I could have saved you a lot of grief. Your transmission is doing what it supposed to.

When the starter clutch is not engaged with the tripper bolts, the starter clutch spring is applying pressure to the starter clutch.

The cluster gear turns in the same direction as the counter shaft, and the clutch gear turns in the opposite direction.

The teeth on the starter clutch and in the cluster gear are ramped on their backside.

If you hold the clutch gear so that it can't turn while turning the counter shaft clockwise, you will hear and feel the starter clutch ratcheting as it would when
tranny is installed in bike with primary chain installed.

Hope this helps.

Appreciate that, Ralph, and I've seen a couple YouTube vids of same. In my case, however, even wearing gloves and/or using channel locks, I cannot prevent that clutch gear turning backwards. In the vids I've seen, the guy can hold the clutch gear with two fingers, and you hear the kicker ratcheting on the "return" stroke. Not so with mine. It applies as much or more force in the "reverse" direction as it does when being turned counter clockwise, as if it were being kicked.

[JSB55]

PA, (Paul's) write up is excellent, but I do not believe he addressed 3 with reverse. Not even sure if that has anything to do with the kicker working properly.

I had issue with lack of engagement, moving away form aftermarket parts and using NOS helped.

I suggest you give Ralph Camp a call from Ralph's Racing, also a member on this forum. Expert level advice from a really nice gentlemen.

Thanks for your comments. If there are aftermarket parts in this, they were installed by a previous owner. I just changed gaskets, seals, fasteners and thrust washers.
Ralph commented shortly after you did.

[JSB55]

Reassembled it, but this time put the sprocket on. Put it in gear, and turned countershaft counter clockwise. All normal. Used one of those rubber wedges that are used to lock the motor sprocket of a big twin when working on sprocket or clutch. With sprocket locked, I tried to turn the countershaft clockwise. Got about 1/3 of the way through a 180 and it locked up just as its been doing when I try to hold onto the clutch gear by hand. No ratcheting. No returning the kick arm to 12 O'clock.

[RCamp]

JSB55,
If you can't hold it with channel locks, sounds like you have some aftermarket parts in there. The ramped side of the teeth in the cluster and starter clutch have to be at the same slope so the starter clutch can slide (ratchet) without a lot of resistance. I've also seen after market cluster gears where the internal teeth were not cut in line with the center of the gear.

I've also seen aftermarket counter shafts that had a slight lip that had been left when the splines for the starter clutch were cut. With no rotating force on the starter clutch when the counter shaft is turned counter clockwise it will slide freely. But, when turning in the opposite direction and holding the clutch gear, if the ramps are not correct, a lot of force is applied to the starter clutch and it will "bite" into the lip left on the splines of the counter shaft.

[JSB55]

JSB55,
If you can't hold it with channel locks, sounds like you have some aftermarket parts in there. The ramped side of the teeth in the cluster and starter clutch have to be at the same slope so the starter clutch can slide (ratchet) without a lot of resistance. I've also seen after market cluster gears where the internal teeth were not cut in line with the center of the gear.

I've also seen aftermarket counter shafts that had a slight lip that had been left when the splines for the starter clutch were cut. With no rotating force on the starter clutch when the counter shaft is turned counter clockwise it will slide freely. But, when turning in the opposite direction and holding the clutch gear, if the ramps are not correct, a lot of force is applied to the starter clutch and it will "bite" into the lip left on the splines of the counter shaft.

Thanks, Ralph. Oddly enough, it was working before I took it apart to cure leaks and have a crack welded. Repair to the case was done by a guy with 50 + years doing nothing but machining/building/repairing HD engines and transmissions, and both my top and side covers line up perfectly. Reverse and idler gears slide right in, and I can put the side cover on without having to move anything around.

There were old, poorly done welds on the case, so I know it had been "repaired" before. In fact, it was the old welds that had cracked. No idea about the internals. Would there be markings to look for to identify originals?

To my untrained eye, the cluster and kicker gears look normal, and I don't see anything apparently out of place on the countershaft itself. I'll take it apart this afternoon and post photos.

Thanks for your help!

[JSB55]

Hope somebody can see something in these photos that I don't. Red mark on the kicker gear is mine for locating the large spline.
20220721_133756.jpg20220721_133812.jpg20220721_133838.jpg20220721_133858.jpg20220721_130755.jpg