Nickel Plating Cylinders

[exeric]

I''ve seen many original cylinders, including the one's on my Merkel, and I've never seen copper under the nickel on a cylinder. However, I have seen many early Excelsior, and Indian parts that obviously were copper plated before the nickel because of the tell-tale green oxidation.

[T. Cotten]

Folks,

I just had an unmolested nickel'd U manifold return to my benches, from a personal barnfind of a quarter century ago.

An internal blast reveals copper tint, the very first that I have ever encountered.

Never say 'never'.

....Cotten
PS: Few, if any, of the electroless process carbs that have crossed my benches match each other, much less the original "wash" or "flash" plating.

One electroless carb matches my fake nickel paint perfectly.

Bronze parts will display verdigris through original nickel, without any copper layer.
It is hard to conserve with out destroying it.

[sirhrmechanic]

Never say 'never'.

....Cotten

Truer words have never been spoken.

And, yes, copper can be used on ferrous metals.

A few years ago, we took some cast iron water jacket covers off a block. These are bolt-on side covers. Usually, the water has pitted and eroded these very deeply. Often to the point that they have to be scrapped. This set had been copper plated (copper washed, really). And there was zero pitting. Nothing. Still looked like new. Even lime and scale barely stuck to it. Noone had seen that before in a factory engine (and this had never been opened before.). So strange stuff does happen.

FYI, copper has been used at times for nickel plating, especially for bright nickel. Colt, at the end of the 1800's into the early 1900's, had a brief time when they used copper under nickel plating on revolvers. Earlier and later nickel plated guns were nickel on the ferrous parts. But for a brief period, around the time of earlier bikes mentioned above, copper went into vogue under nickel.

So Cotten... absolutely right!

Cheers,

Sirhr

[exeric]

Harley-Davidson routinely copper plated internal transmission, and engine parts through the panhead era. I assume it was for heat-treating, but had the collateral benefit of inhibiting rust.

[sirhrmechanic]

Eric:

I was going to mention that copper tone on heat-treated parts. Because it's something that comes up now and then.

First, that's not a copper-plating, per-se, but is an oxidation artifact of heat treating. No copper in it. It is a form of ferrous oxidation, but has to do with the atmosphere in the heat treating ovens, the alloy being heat treated, temperature, etc. I am told that exposure to argon gas can intensify the color. The 'copper' color definitely does resist rusting... because it is already a form of rust or oxidation and very resistant to converting to the more familiar FEO2.

It is definitely affected/created by atmosphere and climate.

Of note, I've seen a lot of that on Indian parts that I have been working on recently. And Springfield Silver Ghosts very definitely exhibit that orange/red/copper color on heat treated parts, especially things like transmission forks. So it may be that in Springfield, Ma. the climate, atmosphere, etc. was very suited to create this exact form of oxidation. The British Ghosts which have parts like tappet bodies, transmission bits, etc. heat treated to the same specification do not exhibit the same color. Only the Springfield parts.

Interestingly enough, in about 2003, I toured Smith and Wesson and their drop hammer forges were busily cranking out... Harley-Davidson Parts. Apparently, H-D has a long history of having their drop forgings done on the huge hammers at Smith and Wesson. So it is possible that the copper color on some of their parts is accentuated by coming from... Springfield! I have no evidence of this... and am not sure whether Smith/Wesson did the heat treating (or if it was done somewhere locally in Springfield -- because there are companies there that specialize in that)... but it's a neat theory. When I was at S&W, there were bins of Shifter forks and other parts for Evo's. Wonder how long back that relationship goes? Anyone know?

Another related example of atmospheric affect is in the color-case-hardening process as used on firearms. I used to know Larry Del Grego (Master Parker Restorer in Ilion, NY). He talked about how when Remington bought Charles Parker Co. (Parker Bros. Shotguns) and moved it to Ilion, NY from Meriden, Ct., the coloring on the frames was never the same. They used the same bone (not cynide) case-hardening processes in Ilion, run by many of the same people and on the same equipment... but because the atmosphere and climate were sufficiently different, they could never get exactly the original hue. They chalked it up to humidity, salinity and other factors.

FYI, here is a picture of a Silver Ghost Tappet body made in Springfield. Heat Treated. Shows the copper color perfectly. But, as I mentioned above, there's no copper there.

tappet 1.jpg

Cheers,

Sirhr

[MMasa]

Copper plate is routinely used as a heat treating mask when case hardening. It protects thin sections from becoming brittle. A perfect example is a spool front hub. You may want a 0.040" - 0.060" case on the ball bearing races inside the hub but you do not want the spoke flange which may be 0.100" or less thick to end up at 58-62 HRc. If it is un-masked, it will get a case from both sides and end up way too hard. The process would go like this.
Machine the entire hub from a case hardenable material like 8620 but leave a little stock on the bearing race area.
Copper plate the entire hub with a 0.001"-0.002" layer.
Abrade or machine the plate off of the bearing race.
Case harden to the desired depth.
Finish grind the bearing race.

So now you have a good hard wear resistant bearing race at 58-62 HRc but everything under the copper ends up in the low 40's HRc. Strong and tough but not brittle.

Mark Masa

[sirhrmechanic]

Interesting... thanks!

I can definitely see its utility in case hardening! Certainly a very common form of heat-treating, but that is a perfect description!

Cheers,

Sirhr

[MMasa]

First few hits from a Google search.

http://www.vpmetalcoat.com/tips/2-1.html
http://www.advancedtechnicalprod.com...-coatings.html
http://www.ppiaerospace.com/industri...r-plating.html
http://www.ppiaerospace.com/industri...r-plating.html

I use it on cams too where I need different case depths on the gear tooth face and on the lobe.
Mark Masa

[DanM]

I can think of one more reasion for the copper plate before nickle on resotation- filling pits. The coper is plated and sanded or polished off uuntil the pits are leveled, then the nickle could go on. On my pitted parts, like the throttle sleeve, I sanded and polished to remove metal to reduce the size of the pits, but the nickle is still in the pits and isn't a "10". It is too much metal removal to get the pits out without changing the profile of the part. I did try solder, but the nickle doesn't look the same as adjacent. So a copper as filler could restore the hardware. Perhaps the solder would take the copper, then nickle it! That might be something to try also.

[sirhrmechanic]

Dan:

That's exactly why copper is used on 'decorative' plating.

For all... I was at the plating place in Rhode Island yesterday dropping off cylinders and some car parts.

Very impressive shop. I don't think I've ever seen a plating shop that is so clean. You can't make a plating shop look like an operating room... but this was the next best thing. Very professional, they asked all the right questions and had all the right answers to my questions.

I think they are going to do an outstanding job. The foreman, BTW, had a UL until recently. Now working on a vintage XLCH. So he is familiar w. vintage bike stuff.

I'll post pictures when they are done!

Cheers,

Sirhr

[Chris Haynes]

Harley-Davidson routinely copper plated internal transmission, and engine parts through the panhead era. I assume it was for heat-treating, but had the collateral benefit of inhibiting rust.

Copper was to identify new design parts from older ones.