Nickel Plating Cylinders

[sirhrmechanic]

I found a lovely pair of '38 cylinders for my Chief motor project.

I would like to nickel plate (electroless probably is best) and am wondering who folks here recommend. Lots of platers out there. But the competent ones who have done MC cylinders are a lot fewer and further between

Appreciate a reference.

Cheers,

Sirhr

[Robert Luland]

Sirhr, since nobody stepped up to base I will. Nickel platting a barrel is a trip onto its self. First off put them in a glass beader and get them as clean as possible. I have a rubber plug I put in the bottom and just shove a rag in the top if you trying to protect the cylinder wall. The clean thing has nothing to do with the platting process but everything to do with the prep thing. Second, the threads. Every thread has to be coated in a thick coating of Silicon. Smaller thread 1” in diameter and down. I just fill the whole thing and squeegee it off. I tape around the ports and remove after applying the Silicon. Now wait 48 hours before touching. Thick Silicone does not cure over night. Now back into the glass beader. This will take off any excess Silicone or a finger print that you didn’t see. The Silicone on the threads will be just fine in the beader. You just want to eliminate any chance of the stuff being anywhere else than where you want it. And finally the cylinder bore. Get your wallet out; you’re going to need it. I always protect the bore. I want nothing on the cylinder wall. This one’s up to you. The platting process is a hot one and duct tape or vinyl won’t survive the trip. We coat the inside of our cylinders in lead tape. This stuff is ungodly expensive but preferred by platters. You can get it from McMaster or other industrial suppliers. Find someone with small hands to help. When they come home just get some cheap course round wire brushes. I cut them off and pop them in a drill. This will take the silicone right out of the threads. Hope this helps, Bob L

[sirhrmechanic]

Interesting... so you are advocating having the plating done after sleeving and final boring? One fellow I talked to suggested plating first, then doing the machine work. His biggest concern was not nickel on the cylinder walls, but was keeping plating solution out of the junction between sleeve and barrel.

This is great stuff! I found a plater in R.I. which advertises in AMCA. Anyone have any feedback on them? I was using a plater in Canada, but he really screwed up some parts and I won't use them again. And my two 'car' guys who do wonderful nickel won't touch cylinders... as you say, they're a specialty item!

Thanks for the great tips!

Cheers,

Sirhr

[Robert Luland]

Sirhr, when I did my 22 I didn’t know at the time whether they needed to be bored or not. So I protected them. In the end, they didn’t need boring. When I get anything platted, I protect those areas that I feel the stuff doesn’t belong in. My platter here in Jersey did a great job. Bob L

[rwm]

sirhr. you got a chicken and an egg question. if you plate the cylinders first. they may turn blue from boring and sleeving. if you plate them first you wont need the lead tape on the walls of the bore. if you plate them first your machinist may break a fin off. what if the guy screws up the sleeving? then somebody is out the cost of plating.
i say glass bead them first spray the hell out of them with wd 40 have them sleeved keep them coated in a rust protector. then plate them. try it at home i hear guys have great results with caswells
http://www.caswellplating.com/
bob talks about lead tape. you can buy a stop off paint from plating supply stores. also call north penn plating and polishing i never used them but the owner is in the amca. they are in sellersville pa. or use bobs guy his cylinders look good.

[sirhrmechanic]

Thanks guys.

Re. the sleeving. What we are doing in vintage cars these days is using a lot less of a press/heat fit and using an anaerobic Loctite sleeve adhesive. In the 'old' days you used a lot of press and had a big risk, especially with our big cast-iron blocks which, though water erosion, can end up being quite delicate. Cast iron loves compression... but hates tension. And a sleeve can put a lot of tension. LocTite has a cylinder sleeve adhesive that was developed especially for modern cars with aluminum blocks, etc. It takes tons per square inch to remove them once it's set, so you don't need to worry about dropping a liner. And I do trust my engine guy not to break things. We drive 200 miles each way to a machine shop for exactly that reason.

But you do raise good points and my machinist did say that he had some concern about clamping on the nickel. If it were 'thick' triple plate, it could definitely have an impact as clamping stresses could crack plating. But from what I have seen, the nickel on cylinders is very thin and is the first layer (ie. nickel sticks to cast iron).

I've been doing some digging and in addition to the silicone that Robert mentioned (and that's a great idea) I am wondering if the rubberized coating that is used for tool handles would work. That goes on thick, is quite rugged and can be applied in a number of ways.

Right now, I am waiting for a plater to get to work on Monday morning so I can ask his opinion. The machine shop was fine doing it any way... but suggested asking around. He'es done a lot of bike cylinders, just not nickel plate ones.

Another possible option is sleeving and then not final boring the cylinder. Takes two trips to the machine shop, but we do that all the time when we vacuum-impregnate blocks. They leave the cylinders about .003" under piston final fit size and after VI is done, they hone to exact final fit. The downside there is that if much nickel gets into the bore, it makes honing very difficult as you get hard/soft spots. So the bore still needs to be protected, but at least I don't run the risk of contamination of the finished/honed/fitted-to-pistons walls.

Very good thoughts everyone. And this is totally a chicken/egg thing. There seem to be advantages and disadvantages to most every conceiveable process. Going to come down to listening to all the really great input, talking to machininst and plater and then making a SWAG. If I get a process down pat, you'll hear about it here first... and keep the thoughts coming!

Cheers,

Sirhr

[harleytoprock]

I would do the final boring and valve seat cutting after the plating. I believe electroless nickle goes right on to the cast iron with out any copper build up. I honed my cylinders on my 15" and 14" mounted to a plate with 4 bolts. No problem what so ever to the nickle.

[sirhrmechanic]

Talked to the plater today... the folks at International Chromium Plating in RI. They advertise in AMCA.

They had the same recommendation -- plate first. They will mask all the critical areas anyway. And machining will be no problem afterwards.

They use a combination of electroless nickel and traditional plating. They will run them through electroless to get plating in between the fins and then will do another round to add a little depth and shine around the outer edges of the fins and on the barrel, etc.

They sounded like they knew what they were talking about.

My machinist won't have any trouble with the machining after nickeling. A bit extra care, but they are good at that.

Guides, etc. will get put in after plating.

And Toprock, you are correct about nickel. It's always the first layer of the plating process. Nickel sticks to ferrous metal and is the first layer even in chroming. (then copper then chrome). If the nickel is to be perfectly smooth (ie. polished nickel or bright nickel) they sometimes go nickel, copper (to fill and polish), then a top layer of nickel. Good platers are getting hard to find... thanks Al Gore.

Cheers,

Sirhr

[DanM]

I have plated 3 sets of cylinders with the Caswell materials in a 6 gallon bucket. I did them all before the finish machine work. As Bob suggests, glass beading and cleaning- I even boiled them in hot soap and baked them out at 350f. I did reverse plate one set with sulfuric and lead and battery charger, but it is not necessary. the nickle sticks fine to any old nickle that stays on thru the blasting. I switched from glass beads to crushed glass and it really helps. I made plugs for every hole- I was able to use expanding rubber plugs from the autoparts store for plugs, intake and exhaust. I made up plastic plugs for the intake bore area and for the bottom of the cylinders. The reason for me was the Caswell instructions are very conservative about overloading the bath, and how many square inches of plating is in the bath, so I just tried to reduce the area to be plated. On the last set of Indian cylinders I used a 3M tape 470. This materials is made to withastand the hot baths and chemicals. After all the cleaning and prep and mask, lastly I submerged into pickle 4 (Caswell), or Muriatic Acid, submerged in rinse water, then into plaing immediately. I plated for 1 hour to build up approx .001" of plating. I was happy with the cylinders, and I have run them a few hundred miles without any deterioration. I did mine for the satisfaction of "doing it all", and did the other 2 sets for friends to see if I could. It cost about $350 for the first kit to get set up, and 1-2 hundred in chemicals for a set after. Its not hard, but it is a bit time consuming. But for me it also allowed for all the brackets, carb, etc and nickled all the small parts on the JD.

[fillibuster]

Hey sirh! Good for you in finding a set of 38-9's for that project you've been talking about! Where were they hiding? out east probably?
I'm watching your progress on the nickel as I'll be making that attempt on 35-6-7 SS cyls.
BTW, have you considered silver-soldering sleeves? Wilson Plank used to do that, and Stark says he still does. I feel like that treatment is especially viable on the round-base cyls such as your 38-9's, and 40 Chiefs. I've seen too many of those round-bases separated from the base flange, some due to maybe un-tweaked rods, high compression and maybe a clearance issue, any condition that siezes the piston, whatever.
They always said a stock Chief will do 85 mph, and I believe it. My cams gave me 90, and I had a little fun with it, but I can't recommend it on anything but square-base cyls, as it hurts to see a grown man cryin over them precious earlier cyls.!! ....... anyway, I meant to suggest that a sweated sleeve could win back some of the tensile strength, possibly.
REgardless, good luck, and it's gonna be fun to ride stock or hot.

[sirhrmechanic]

Thanks Fillibuster.

Found the Cyl's down South... They should be here any day now. I found them via e-bay, but bought them from a seller privately. He sold me some other stuff.

The 'smart' way to do them would be black. But there is something just jewel-like about a nickel engine. Especially on a prewar Chief. Besides, I am a glutton for punishment, otherwise I'd have a Gold Wing.

I'll keep everyone updated.

I had not thought about silver solder... but that would scare me a bit. Heat and cast iron are a risky combination.

One thing that we do on some of the car cylinders is to put in a dutchman (pin). After sleeving, but before boring, drill a small hole and insert a cast-iron threaded pin (see my earlier post on Irontite pins). That can be bored smooth inside the cylinder and filed flush outside. It's a belt/braces approach. The Loctite liner material is very proven. Most production cars use it. My biggest concern about it is heat-transfer, but I am assured that it does not insulate the sleeve from the cylinder fins.

That saved our butt once when putting a piston in a Ghost cylinder. That is a non-detachable head with a combustion chamber at the top. If you put the piston too far into the cylinder -- with the rings in the pistons -- the top ring can pop out into the combustion chamber. Locking the piston in. Forever. As in cut the piston out. Which sucks.

The only time it happened at the shop, we had a sleeve that was pressed in and pinned. We actually removed the pin, made a puller and were able to ease the sleeve and piston out. Then simply re-sleeved, re-bored and we were ok. With piston sets running $3K... and not sold one at a time, it's a mistake we don't want to repeat. We usually use piston stops (nylon plugs that go into the plug hole that prevent the piston from going too high.

But hearing that 'click' as the ring pops out... sucks.

I'll post some stuff as I get these cylinders together and get the engine assembled.

Cheers,

Sirhr

[stan]

I was facing the same thing when I needed to nickel plate the cylinders on my 36 four. I found out a few things along the way. Electroless nickel is what they did back in the early days. If you use current and nickel plate, the nickel doesn't seam get to the bottom of the cylinder fins. I beed blasted the crap out of then, and had them electroless plated, they turned out very good. after the nickel I had the cylinders bored out with no problem. I didn't bother plugging the threads. I just ran a tap throught them if they needed it. If you aren't going to bore the cylinders, then what I said wouldn't help much. Stan

[sirhrmechanic]

Hi Stan:

I am taking the cylinders down to Providence tomorrow. The plater has done a lot of these. They advertise in AMCA. They said they will do electroless. Then do an electro-nickel wash after to give the barrel and ends of the fin a bit of extra shine and protection.'

I'll let everyone know how it comes out.

Cheers,

Sirhr

[tfburke3]

I have some very nice std bore 38 cylinders for a project and thought I would mention that they appear to have been plated with the guides in place,and there is absolutely no sign of copper plating,even one spot where there is a piece starting to peel on a guide that you can see the bottom of the peeling piece.
Tom

[sirhrmechanic]

Hi Burke:

There shouldn't be any copper under the nickel. Nickel sticks to ferrous... copper sticks to nickel. Chrome sticks to copper. Copper is also used to 'fill' pits and smooth the surface on rough or pitted finishes because it can be put on thick and then buffed back. So for 'bright' nickel, you can end up with nickel, copper, nickel.

But for electroless nickel or electro-plate nickel "only" no copper would be used.

Interesting about the guides. I have a set of new guides and they are nickel wash (dull nickel). I'd be wary plating them in place because of acid in the joint, etc. But would it surprise me if they were done that way originally... nope. Manufacturers did interesting things and had processes that are lost to us today. So no surprise if that was how they were done. Today, I will be happier fitting them after plating.

Thanks for the input! Cheers.

Sirhr