Restoration of a Bosch ZEV magneto

[BoschZEV]

if Lonnie decides on a pre-16 for a 2016 run, the majority will have Bosch magnetos... if you don't have spark ...you will not complete the run with a perfect score... No spark, dead in the water.

That's why there's a chance that someone reading the details of the restoration of my friend's Bosch ZEV might decide my offer makes sense:

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbth...733#Post446733

Don't give up if your plan doesn't come to fruition

Not to worry. To call it a "plan" implies more thought than I've actually given it.

Even though I started this present magneto thread only last year it is already #7 in views (and climbing toward #5 within a few weeks) out of all 292 threads in the 'Electrical' forum, indicating a lot of interest in this topic. This brings to mind something else that I'll mention. For several years in the mid-'00s when I was involved with the AMA/AMHF they had me give hour-long magneto (also carburetor) seminars at Vintage Motorcycle Days, and I've also given related talks in Europe and Japan. Two years ago the now-former Blackhawk Chapter asked me to do a magneto seminar at their annual meet, but I already was committed to be somewhere else that weekend. Anyway, I have a talk packed with visuals, sectioned magneto bodies and armatures, a full portable magneto repair toolkit, handouts, etc. in case some chapter is interested in hosting such a troubleshooting and repair seminar for their members at an upcoming meet. I would waive all speaker fees, but it would require covering actual out-of-pocket expenses (i.e. airline ticket, motel, and rental car if one were necessary).

[10E]

BoschZEV
I really appreciate your immediate response to my questions. I need time to decipher your answer and come up with a working model. I am pretty much illiterate about electrics but have lots of friends who will interpret you answer into action.
As you say, if Lonnie decides on a pre-16 for a 2016 run, the majority will have Bosch magnetos. As discussed, they do have options in regards to spark generators. But, if you don't have spark, and possibly a back-up system you will not complete the run with a perfect score---if that is ones goal.
One can limp in on one cylinder, fix a flat tire etc and still make the full days ride. No spark, dead in the water.
There are of course catastrophic failures that are unpredictable with 100 year old materials, not much you can do with plain metal fatigue.
I can tell tales of very unusual experiences that would have stopped a motorcycle dead in its tracks and yet nothing untoward happened and I obliviously continued on my way. Incidents that happen on the Cannonball or long distant riding on a daily basis. You have to experience to believe it.
Not all of them are connected to the motorcycle.
This Cannonball, my wallet fell from my clothing somewhere in the middle of Kansas. got to the next gas stop, no wallet, A Cannonballer gave me $20.00,
got to the lunch stop, my fellow team member, Dave Kafton came up to me and gave me my wallet. A farmer had flagged him down ( we were not riding together) saying he found the wallet on the side of the road, when he looked in the wallet he saw my name . How many times would that happen in a life time.
This is the kind of stuff that happens when you are standing on the edge of a volcano.
Don't give up if your plan doesn't come to fruition. I know someone who was willing to rent a qualified motorcycle for 2014 Cannonball (for a fee) leaving the rider with little risk, but of course, no motorcycle ownership at the end of the run. Perhaps another way to riding the Cannonball.
Thanks again and all the best on your project
Victor Boocock

[BoschZEV]

My magneto performed perfect too, no attention required, even in two days of heavy rain. Never missed a beat.
This magneto has approximately 11,000 miles on it without any attention to it except for points,

Victor,
Thanks for your post. Your experience with the reliability of a properly restored magneto nicely highlights the point I have been making, that these devices are fundamentally quite sound and so there is no excuse if a rebuilt one fails.

Also, could you mention the pros and cons of lubricating the mag. Type of oil, viscosity, how much, frequency etc.

Lucas recommended lubricating their points rubbing block every 3000 miles using oil. I use a more modern silicone-based lubricant sold as Lubricam and would apply a dab at 3000 miles because it is so cheap and so easy to do, although it probably wouldn't be needed. Petrochemicals rapidly erode tungsten points and Lubricam has both a lower vapor pressure and a higher viscosity than any standard organic grease which is why I use it.

Lucas, which also uses the same type of ball bearings, helpfully suggests not bothering to regrease them until the magneto undergoes a general overhaul. But, they neglect to mention at how many miles that might take place. Here I use Sta-Lube high temperature disc brake bearing grease because it is formulated to withstand a much more hostile environment than the grease ever will see in a magneto. Of course, since I have the necessary electromagnet to recharge the magnets, if I had my friend's magneto back in my garage for any reason I'd disassemble it and regrease the bearings at that point just on general principles. But, because of the quality of this grease, normally I wouldn't start wondering about the grease in any magneto I rebuilt until at least 10k miles. Note that I attached a tag to the oil cup on my friend's magneto warning him not to put any oil in it because it only would wash away the higher quality grease that was actually taking care of the bearings.

I have a question, i hope you can answer. …If you had a total loss ignition set-up installed on the bike (coil/ spark plug wires/ 12 volt battery) in the event the inner parts of the mag failed(armature etc but the mag still turned freely) could it be rigged in a way where you flip a switch and run power from the battery through the mag points to the coil.

The answer is an unqualified 'yes' but…

In fact, such "dual use" magnetos were made a century ago, but the switching has to accomplish two things. It has to switch the points into the total loss circuit while simultaneously switching them out of the magneto circuit. Otherwise the 12 V battery would be across the ~0.5 Ohm primary of the magneto whenever the points were open (drawing 24 Amps until the coil melted). This raises the issue of dwell since a magneto fires when the points open while a standard points/coil system fires when they close. The latter needs to have a long period with the points open to give sufficient time for the current in the coil to saturate (given by the ratio of its inductance L to its resistance R), which becomes increasingly important as rpms rise. Anyway, yes, it could be done.

Your idea for a bike for the 2016 Cannonball is intriguing. Not quite sure from your writing how much you want to charge ( credit) for one mag rebuild. … Morriss Mags have a very good Bosch replica. My friend Dave Kafton has run the mag twice across the country with no troubles what so ever. There is another Bosch replica too, I don't know anything about this mag. They are both in the $1,200/$1,500 range which I think is a reasonable price for this device.

I've seen the Morris magneto mentioned on the web but it doesn't show up on their web site. The other one is advertised in the AMCA magazine. I have no experience with either but if they are reliable, and if someone doesn't care about maintaining authenticity, $1500 is certainly less than I would have to charge/credit to justify the time required to properly rebuild an authentic one.

Rebuilding some unspecified number of magnetos in exchange for the parts to build a pre-'16 bike for the next Cannonball is not any sort of standard business offer. But, to the extent numbers can be applied, I suppose we're talking the equivalent of ~$2.5-5k each in trade for parts. What one would get would be their magnetos rebuilt by someone with a Ph.D. in experimental physics who was elected Fellow of the Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers for work on magnetic materials and who has over the past fifteen years assembled what is almost certainly the most extensive magneto "R&D facility" on the planet. Whether or not it is "worth" the equivalent of $2.5-5k to have a magneto rebuilt by anyone certainly is a valid question, but it's a bargain compared with my consulting rate. However, my offer isn't about money, it would be to give me an interesting project to do and write about for 'The Antique Motorcycle' (i.e. build a pre-'16 bike from parts; my most recent article on TIG welding is in the current issue).

You are correct, now is the time to start work on the 2016 Cannonball

Exactly. If six months from now someone reads this thread and decides to take me up on this, it will be too late.

[10E]

BoschZEV
Congratulations on your friends performance, and your rebuilt magneto he used. It is no easy task getting an old bike across the country given the Cannonball rules.
My magneto performed perfect too, no attention required, even in two days of heavy rain. Never missed a beat.
This magneto has approximately 11,000 miles on it without any attention to it except for points, the majority of those miles being under quite extreme condition ( 8 hrs a day, non stop riding etc) Speaks wonders for the Bosch design and for a stellar rebuild by a man who knows Borsch mags. ( I don't mention his name, out of respect for him) because I believe, due to age he is not looking for any new work.

I have a question, i hope you can answer. Like all mechanical/electrical devices, they can and will let you down at the most unexpected moments. With that in mind.
If you had a total loss ignition set-up installed on the bike (coil/ spark plug wires/ 12 volt battery) in the event the inner parts of the mag failed(armature etc but the mag still turned freely) could it be rigged in a way where you flip a switch and run power from the battery through the mag points to the coil.
I would really appreciate it if you could say if this is possible, and how one would wire this back up system. If not possible I would love to know why not.
I do quite a lot long distance solo riding out in the sticks where cell phones don't work. I don't carry a spare mag. The spare is at home ready to be overnighted if needed. I've been very fortunate in regards to spark, but wouldn't mind have a simple back up spark.
Also, could you mention the pros and cons of lubricating the mag. Type of oil, viscosity, how much, frequency etc.
Thank you in advance.

Your idea for a bike for the 2016 Cannonball is intriguing. Not quite sure from your writing how much you want to charge ( credit) for one mag rebuild.
Since the first Cannonball Run things have changed. Morriss Mags have a very good Bosch replica. My friend Dave Kafton has run the mag twice across the country with no troubles what so ever. There is another Bosch replica too, I don't know anything about this mag. They are both in the $1,200/$1,500 range which I think is a reasonable price for this device.
My 14 HD has over 30,000 miles on it essentially with the same mag the bike came with (except for rebuild) the original owners name is scribed inside the points cover "Young Spindler April 14 1914" Enough said.
I wish you all the best on your bike build. You are correct, now is the time to start work on the 2016 Cannonball. I can tell you this, two days after getting home I was already planning the next Cannonball, and a good long run or two before it. Got some serious climbing to do next spring, 4 passes on The Rockies.
It is a wonderful way to see the USA and it's people.
Regards
Victor Boocock

[duffeycycles]

Pre-'17???? 100 years old in 2016

[BoschZEV]

The 2014 Cannonball is over and the Bosch ZEV magneto whose restoration I described in detail on another site* performed flawlessly for the 3000+ miles without having had any maintenance since I originally restored it for use in the 2012 Cannonball.

* http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbth...733#Post446733

Bill Wood happened to mention at least four failed magnetos in his daily posts about this year's Cannonball. Although there certainly could have been others as well, given that most bikes this year did not have magnetos, even four is a very high percentage of failures. However, between the bench tester and actual road miles my friend's magneto has traveled over 5000 miles so far, which is consistent with my contention that there is no excuse for a properly rebuilt magneto to fail. And yet, rebuilt ones continue to fail with remarkable regularity...

Reliable Magnetos for the Next Cannonball

Word on the street is that the cutoff for the next Cannonball will be bikes at least 100-years old (pre-1916) so having a reliable magneto will be essential for the success or failure of most of those machines. This has seeded an idea, although one that clearly has flaws.

While I don't have any interest whatever in rebuilding magnetos as a business, how about doing so in trade for enough parts and components for me to piece together my own pre-'16 Frankenbike to ride in the next Cannonball? This also would be an interesting project to document in a series of magazine articles. Rather than cash changing hands, the idea, ill-conceived as it is, would be to completely restore to the highest electrical and mechanical standard some ten or so magnetos in exchange for appropriate piles of motorcycle parts gathering dust in the back of barns. If you think in terms of $500 to restore a magneto this idea clearly makes no sense. However, if you think ~10x that for the level of instrumentation, facilities and time that would be applied as shown in the above link, and for the quality and reliability that would be the result, it isn't ureasonable (as if anything we do with old motorcycles is "reasonable"...).

The next Cannonball is two years away, but time will pass quickly. Given my other obligations, completely rebuilding ten magnetos to a proper high standard couldn't happen overnight (nor could building a reliable motorcycle out of piles of mismatched parts). So, if people are happy to start out on the next cross-country ride with the magnetos they already have, or with magneto rebuilders they've used in the past, and/or if no one stumbles across this thread and takes me up on this idea in the next few months (or proposes something better), time will have run out.

[pete @ occhiolungo]

oops. I thought we all knew who 10E was! I've edited my note if you want to try to remain under that radar...

[10E]

BoschZEV and Hi Pete.
Thanks for the information. Both of your suggestions sound good. "Clean inside, Greasy outside. --- not exactly sure about the Brit solution, sounds very British, but if helps and doesn't have side effects -- I'd go for it. Where do you get the British grease Pete :-)
ZEV, I'm very poor in regards electrics but your suggestions make an awful lot of sense, I hope it helps other people too.
I was trying to fly under the radar but you let the "cat out of the bag" Pete.
It's Cannonball time and I'm figuring we are going to run into some serious rain at some point. It may become an issue though I believe their will be few mags. on this run---mostly generators and batteries.
Thank you again
10E victor

[pete @ occhiolungo]

Hi 10E. When the new ZEV was introduced for the 1912/1913 bikes it was marketed as the new "waterproof" model. I'm not sure that the differences from the previous model with the open horseshoe magnet really effected more of a sealed unit, but that was the marketing claim.

regards,
Pete

PS, I've seen a few guys in the rainy UK smear bearing grease all over their magnetos, concentrating on the points cover edges and around the pickups. It seemed to help keep water out and minimize rust. Looked terrible though!

BoschZEV
Off subject a little. On the last long ride, I rode through 3 hours of torrential rain, wind and everything he could throw at us. The ZEV mag never missed a beat.
No special protection was given to the mag. I'm wondering if I was lucky, or is there a potential in inclement weather for water to effect the mag.
If so, how would recommend going about protecting the mag.
Thank you for some very enlightening articles both on the this forum and the britbike forum.
Thank you in advance
1914 HD 10E

[BoschZEV]

is there a potential in inclement weather for water to effect the mag.
If so, how would recommend going about protecting the mag.

An important point is that water itself is an insulator so it would be possible for a magneto to run if totally submerged. Lucas made a magneto for trials competition called a "Wader" in their literature. The only actual concession the Wader made to water was the points housing was sealed, but with a tube in the cover to let the ozone out. However, the problem isn't the water, it's that most impurities in water act as a conductor. If those impurities end up in the wrong place the high voltage will use it to take a shortcut to ground.

The easiest place for water to enter a Bosch ZEV is in the points housing. However, there is no high voltage there so only if things are dirty inside the points housing and if the water carries electrically conductive "dirt" to the right place in the points will it cause a problem in this part of the circuit.

The high voltage pickups actually are sealed pretty well so it wouldn't be very easy for water to enter there. However, if it did it almost certainly would encounter carbon dust. Although that dust already was there it wasn't in the right place to cause problems (otherwise, your bike would have died before it even had rained), but if the water moves the carbon dust to someplace where it provides an easier path to ground the bike will stop.

I've certainly seen bikes give up in the rain because water got in the magneto. But, I've also seen a lot of bikes go through a lot of heavy rain without problem. So, to some extent you were lucky that your ZEV kept you going for as long as it did in heavy rain, but that it did isn't too surprising. The best thing you can do to prepare for the next torrential rain is to keep the internals as clean as possible.

[10E]

BoschZEV
Off subject a little. On the last long ride, I rode through 3 hours of torrential rain, wind and everything he could throw at us. The ZEV mag never missed a beat.
No special protection was given to the mag. I'm wondering if I was lucky, or is there a potential in inclement weather for water to effect the mag.
If so, how would recommend going about protecting the mag.
Thank you for some very enlightening articles both on the this forum and the britbike forum.
Thank you in advance
1914 HD 10E

[BoschZEV]

Those of you with magnetos that have their condensers located adjacent to the points plate might be interested in a new Appendix to my Bosch ZEV restoration thread that I uploaded a few days ago:

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbth...361#Post540361

[BoschZEV]

As I wrote a few days ago on the Parking Lot Chatter forum, for reasons I can't explain I recently spent just over $200 (+$14 shipping) to outbid 5 other guys for a totally trashed Bosch ZEV that looked like crap in the listing. Although the listing showed it to be missing the pickups and have the threaded end snapped off the armature, when I unpacked it I found it doesn't appear to be much worse than the one I dealt with in the following thread I wrote under the screen name 'Magnetoman':

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbth...733#Post446733




Although the photo doesn't show it, it is missing one of the two cam lobes as well as having the threaded end of the shaft broken off. However, overall it isn't all that much worse than the one I dealt with in the above thread. What this means is, if I ever do find a reason to restore this magneto it probably would take pretty much the same effort as the previous one, plus a full day to rewind the armature and vacuum impregnate it with the proper resin.

[BoschZEV]

The last motor I built for a friend was so labor intensive due to engine case condition I could not justify charging him , it would have been to much.

I understand this completely. Sometimes not charging anything for a very serious amount of work is the only reasonable thing to do.

[Slojo]

"I do what any rational person would do who has assembled a comprehensive set of instrumentation and facilities and actually knows how to diagnose and repair magnetos properly -- I repair them for free... "

BoschZEV

The last motor I built for a friend was so labor intensive due to engine case condition I could not justify charging him , it would have been to much.

joe